View previous topic | View next topic

All things football.

Page 25 of 26
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3 ... , 24, 25, 26  Next

AlmondFacialBar
1385064.  Mon Jul 12, 2021 2:57 pm Reply with quote

tetsabb wrote:
I am not an expert on footie, but I did think that, when Chiesa went off, Southgate should have brought on Grealish straight away, as he seems to have a similar effect on the opponents' defence as Signore Chiesa does, namely, near panic.

And when the Italian defender grabbed Saka by the neck of his shirt, I felt that deserved a red card. I bet Nigel Owens would not have allowed a player doing that to stay on a rugby pitch.


I'd have liked to see red for that one, too, but realistically that would have been overdoing it. Red is reserved for a violent conduct and illegal and purposeful obstruction of a goal scoring opportunity, and this was neither. It was just a seriously fucked up foul that makes one wish he'll never sleep again.

:-)

AlmondFacialBar

 
barbados
1385065.  Mon Jul 12, 2021 3:16 pm Reply with quote

I would have given him that one - he knew what he was doing, and did just enough - another 5 yards and it would have been a red straight away.
The one I am really disappointed with is when Jorghino went in on Grealish studs showing.
That said, the referee had a very good game (as most did through the tournament)

 
barbados
1385066.  Mon Jul 12, 2021 3:20 pm Reply with quote

ON the taking the medals off - I think you might be looking for something that isn't really there. The players were disappointed, and medals are really for winners so I can get why they took them off and carried them rather than wore them

 
PDR
1385067.  Mon Jul 12, 2021 3:34 pm Reply with quote

barbados wrote:
That said, the referee had a very good game


That's hardly surprising - he seemed to be laying for the winning team...

PDR

 
barbados
1385068.  Mon Jul 12, 2021 3:37 pm Reply with quote

Pretty sure if you watched the game you'd realise how ridiculous that comment is

 
suze
1385071.  Mon Jul 12, 2021 3:54 pm Reply with quote

barbados wrote:
ON the taking the medals off - I think you might be looking for something that isn't really there. The players were disappointed, and medals are really for winners so I can get why they took them off and carried them rather than wore them


Plenty of people take a silver or bronze medal at the Olympic Games when they had been hoping for a gold. Most of them wear their medals for the duration of the medal ceremony all the same.

To be sure, there have been one or two who reacted petulantly. An Armenian/Swedish wrestler named Abrahamian did just that at the 2008 Olympics (commentary in Swedish). The IOC ruled that since Abrahamian clearly didn't want his bronze medal he needn't have it, disqualified him from the competition altogether, and banned him from the Olympics for life.

His actions were not generally considered proper, and the England team's actions were little better.

 
duglasbell@hotmail.co.uk
1385072.  Mon Jul 12, 2021 4:17 pm Reply with quote

suze wrote:

To be sure, there have been one or two who reacted petulantly. An Armenian/Swedish wrestler named Abrahamian did just that at the 2008 Olympics (commentary in Swedish). The IOC ruled that since Abrahamian clearly didn't want his bronze medal he needn't have it, disqualified him from the competition altogether, and banned him from the Olympics for life.


Something similar happened at the 1992 Barcelona Olympics when Russian weightlifter Ibragim Samadov threw his bronze medal to the ground at the medal ceremony and walked off the podium. He was disqualified and banned for life. The third-place position was subsequently declared vacant and the bronze medal was retained by the IOC.

Previously, in 1972, the US basketball team also refused to accept their silver medals following a dispute over the score after their defeat by the USSR. In what must be the longest tantrum in the world the medals reside in a Munich bank-vault to this day.


Last edited by duglasbell@hotmail.co.uk on Mon Jul 12, 2021 4:30 pm; edited 1 time in total

 
jaygeemack
1385075.  Mon Jul 12, 2021 4:29 pm Reply with quote

I see Tory MP Natalie Elphicke messaged after the game that Marcus Rashford would be better practising his football rather than playing politics.

Tory MPs - dontcha just love them!

 
PDR
1385077.  Mon Jul 12, 2021 4:51 pm Reply with quote

barbados wrote:
Pretty sure if you watched the game you'd realise how ridiculous that comment is


I did watch the game (for once) and formed the strong impression that the Italians played a very dirty game, and the referee gave a "play on" for well over a dozen clear fouls, the vast majority favouring the Italian team. The final scruff-pulling incident should have been a red rather than yellow card.

The English team lost the game through letting the Italians run them ragged after giving up significant offensive play in the 3rd minute, but they did so with the clear opposition of the referee IMHO.

PDR

 
suze
1385080.  Mon Jul 12, 2021 5:11 pm Reply with quote

jaygeemack wrote:
I see Tory MP Natalie Elphicke messaged after the game that Marcus Rashford would be better practising his football rather than playing politics.

Tory MPs - dontcha just love them!


It's not exactly the first time that Mrs Elphicke's judgment has been called into question ...

 
barbados
1385083.  Mon Jul 12, 2021 6:07 pm Reply with quote

suze wrote:
barbados wrote:
ON the taking the medals off - I think you might be looking for something that isn't really there. The players were disappointed, and medals are really for winners so I can get why they took them off and carried them rather than wore them


Plenty of people take a silver or bronze medal at the Olympic Games when they had been hoping for a gold. Most of them wear their medals for the duration of the medal ceremony all the same.

To be sure, there have been one or two who reacted petulantly. An Armenian/Swedish wrestler named Abrahamian did just that at the 2008 Olympics (commentary in Swedish). The IOC ruled that since Abrahamian clearly didn't want his bronze medal he needn't have it, disqualified him from the competition altogether, and banned him from the Olympics for life.

His actions were not generally considered proper, and the England team's actions were little better.

Perhaps you could share with us which of the England players threw their medals away?
Although as you suggest, the norm is to wear the medal until the end of the ceremony, is that not when you leave the rostrum? Which is when the England players removed their medals.

 
barbados
1385084.  Mon Jul 12, 2021 6:17 pm Reply with quote

PDR wrote:
barbados wrote:
Pretty sure if you watched the game you'd realise how ridiculous that comment is


I did watch the game (for once) and formed the strong impression that the Italians played a very dirty game, and the referee gave a "play on" for well over a dozen clear fouls, the vast majority favouring the Italian team. The final scruff-pulling incident should have been a red rather than yellow card.

The English team lost the game through letting the Italians run them ragged after giving up significant offensive play in the 3rd minute, but they did so with the clear opposition of the referee IMHO.

PDR

Well you are incorrect, what Giogio Chiellini did did not warrant a red card, yes it was totally unsportsmanlike, but a shirt pull does not constitute a red card offence. Had there not been another defender between Saka and the goal, and Saka was moving towards the goal, then yes it would have been a red, not the yellow it deserved- although had either of those been the case, the Chiellini wouldn’t have committed that particular foul.
As for the referee he waved “play on” when the Italians were fouled as well.
As for the reason England lost - other, more accurate, opinions are available.

 
tetsabb
1385101.  Tue Jul 13, 2021 6:50 am Reply with quote

AlmondFacialBar wrote:
tetsabb wrote:
I am not an expert on footie, but I did think that, when Chiesa went off, Southgate should have brought on Grealish straight away, as he seems to have a similar effect on the opponents' defence as Signore Chiesa does, namely, near panic.

And when the Italian defender grabbed Saka by the neck of his shirt, I felt that deserved a red card. I bet Nigel Owens would not have allowed a player doing that to stay on a rugby pitch.


I'd have liked to see red for that one, too, but realistically that would have been overdoing it. Red is reserved for a violent conduct and illegal and purposeful obstruction of a goal scoring opportunity, and this was neither. It was just a seriously fucked up foul that makes one wish he'll never sleep again.

:-)

AlmondFacialBar


I think grabbing someone from behind by the collar is violent conduct, and quite purposeful. It could have seriously injured the other player. And the same would have applied if an English player had done it.

 
PDR
1385105.  Tue Jul 13, 2021 7:42 am Reply with quote

tetsabb wrote:

I think grabbing someone from behind by the collar is violent conduct, and quite purposeful. It could have seriously injured the other player. And the same would have applied if an English player had done it.


One of my colleagues is a qualified ref, and he has circulated the following from his notes of the last refresher training:

Quote:
A Red Card comes under Rule 12 and in this case there are three of the guideline examples that would be arguable:

1 serious foul play
2 violent conduct
3 denying a realistic goal-scoring opportunity with a foul

In the brief we were given a decision tree for assessing direct contact against the Serious Foul Play category which went like this:

Was it a breech of the Rules of the Game? If yes then it's a foul
Was it deliberate rather than accidental? If yes then it's a yellow card
Was it something for which the could be no legitimate purpose? (ie was it a tackle that went wrong or a misjudged blocking move) If no then it's a Red Card

For Violent Conduct we were told that one test was "Did it involve direct contact that had no legitimate purpose and which brought a player down with or without a risk of injury?" If yes then it's a Yellow Card, but if it was also intended (in the opinion of the Ref or linee) to cause loss of possession at a significant point in the game then it's a Red Card. Note that Ifab 12:3 only requires "use of excessive force" for it to be "Serious Foul Play"

On loss of goal-scoring opportunity, the current interpretation of this includes the whole line of play to the next dead ball. So if a deliberate foul takes away any realistic goal opportunity that the flow of play was likely to achieve then the Ref should consider a Red Card. If the action is a blatant violation of the Rules of the Game and has no legitimate purpose then the Red Card must be considered almost inevitable because we should not allow illegal conduct to affect the score (even if that score is only "probable").


I'll defer to Mike on this, but if you went up behind someone in the street and grasped their collar, pulling them to the ground, do you think a magistrate would NOT consider it to be "violent conduct"?

PDR

 
barbados
1385112.  Tue Jul 13, 2021 11:08 am Reply with quote

If you speak to your Mike, I'm sure he will confirm that there was not a goal scoring opportunity, because
a) the player was not moving towards the goal, he was running along the sideline.
b) there were defenders in the middle of the pitch tracking back, and between Saka and the goal.

As for violent conduct - it was a shirt pull - yes it was dramatic, but it was just a shirt pull. The intention was probably to ensure that a freekick was given rather than risk the chance of any "advantage".
Also Tetsabb mentioned previously the
Quote:
Nigel Owens would not have allowed a player doing that to stay on a rugby pitch.

The reason for that is in rugby, where you tackle with your hands, it would be serious foul play - similar to tackling over the ball with your studs showing in football.

 

Page 25 of 26
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3 ... , 24, 25, 26  Next

All times are GMT - 5 Hours


Display posts from previous:   

Search Search Forums

Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group