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suze
1071678.  Tue Apr 29, 2014 11:18 am Reply with quote

julesies wrote:
Apparently the first "lingua franca" was an actual language called Lingua Franca or Sabir. It literally means "Frankish Language" in Italian


It wasn't the first, but it absolutely was the one which gave us the term lingua franca.

Greek and Latin had served as lingua francas in the same part of Europe a thousand and more years earlier, and other examples could be found in other parts of the world.

The important difference is that Greek and Latin were the first languages of large numbers of people, quite apart from being used as lingua francas by people whose first languages they were not. So far as we known, the Mediterranean Lingua Franca was no one's first language; it was used only to facilitate communication between people who didn't speak the same language. In linguistics, we call such a language a pidgin.

Until around 1960, pidgin languages were largely ignored by the academic linguistics community as being unworthy of serious study. Until even more recently, that attitude persisted as regards pidgins derived from African and American languages.

As a result, there's a lot which is still not known about early pidgins. It is know that both Arabic-based and Greek-based pidgins existed in the Mediterranean at much the same time as the Italian-based Mediterranean Lingua Franca, but we know very little about them. The Bahamian linguist John Holm - a leading authority on pidgins - asserts that there were pidgins in Egypt considerably earlier still, although since I haven't read his book on the subject I cannot be more specific.

 
julesies
1071713.  Tue Apr 29, 2014 3:39 pm Reply with quote

suze wrote:
It wasn't the first, but it absolutely was the one which gave us the term lingua franca.
Ah yes, I meant the first language ever referred to as a "lingua franca" rather than the first language that could fit our current definition of a lingua franca. I bet there were numerous languages that fit that definition that existed before Mediterranean Lingua Franca.

suze wrote:
In linguistics, we call such a language a pidgin...
That's fascinating. Your post has piqued my interest in pidgin languages.


Last edited by julesies on Tue Apr 29, 2014 5:27 pm; edited 1 time in total

 
sally carr
1071719.  Tue Apr 29, 2014 5:15 pm Reply with quote

Still not had coffee yet?

 
julesies
1071723.  Tue Apr 29, 2014 5:29 pm Reply with quote

Nope. That typo you can hold me accountable for.

 
ERose90
1078822.  Sat Jun 07, 2014 2:18 am Reply with quote

A bit of Quite Interesting knowledge I've just picked up about language and the pronunciation of words.

Ever wonder what those ridges on the roof of your mouth are for?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alveolar_ridge

Alveolar ridge
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

An alveolar ridge (/Šlˈvi.ələr/; also known as the alveolar margin) is one of the two jaw ridges either on the roof of the mouth between the upper teeth and the hard palate or on the bottom of the mouth behind the lower teeth. The alveolar ridges contain the sockets (alveoli) of the teeth. They can be felt with the tongue in the area right above the top teeth or below the bottom teeth. Its surface is covered with little ridges. Sounds made with the tongue touching the alveolar ridge while speaking are called alveolar consonants. Examples of alveolar consonants in English are, for instance, [t], [d], [s], [z], [n], [l] like in the words tight, dawn, silly, zoo, nasty and lurid. There are exceptions to this however, such as speakers of the New York Accent who pronounce [t] and [d] at the back of their teeth. When pronouncing these sounds the tongue touches ([t], [d], [n]), or nearly touches ([s], [z]) the upper alveolar ridge which can also be referred to as gum ridge. In many other languages, consonants transcribed with these letters are articulated slightly differently, and are often described as dental consonants. In many languages consonants are articulated with the tongue touching or close to the upper alveolar ridge. The former are called alveolar plosives, and the latter alveolar fricatives.

 
salamander
1079598.  Wed Jun 11, 2014 11:10 pm Reply with quote

Random language info
1There are a lot of seemingly accidentall similarities between japanese and maori:
MaoriPuku=stomach,japanese Manpuku=full belly Maori kai=food
japanese kai=shell or to Buy
But it isnt really a coincidence bcause the origin of both peoples goes back to tawan
2a lot of languages use reduplication for emphasis JAapanese "pikapika"sparkling Egytian DjedDjed "eternal"
3The reason that we say you are..is that you is not a singular or plural,its a dual and goes back to the roman emperors who at times ruled as two people

 
salamander
1079599.  Wed Jun 11, 2014 11:13 pm Reply with quote

A pidgin dialect is one used for busines ;pidgin is pidgin for business

 
Awitt
1079600.  Thu Jun 12, 2014 12:57 am Reply with quote

My dad knew a man who'd lived/travelled around the islands where 'pidgin' languages are common, and a description for sardines in a can was 'no swim fish.'

 
CharliesDragon
1079604.  Thu Jun 12, 2014 1:39 am Reply with quote

Pikachu just really likes sparkly stuff? Well, that made him/her/it less cool...

 
julesies
1079723.  Thu Jun 12, 2014 11:03 pm Reply with quote

salamander wrote:
1There are a lot of seemingly accidentall similarities between japanese and maori:
MaoriPuku=stomach,japanese Manpuku=full belly Maori kai=food
japanese kai=shell or to Buy
But it isnt really a coincidence bcause the origin of both peoples goes back to tawan

Do you have a source for this? Maori is a Polynesian language, while Japanese is Japonic. I can't comment on Maori, but in Japanese the puku in manpuku comes from fuku () which means abdomen or belly. The Japanese way of pronouncing this character (its kun-yomi) is actually hara. The fuku comes from the transliteration of the Chinese pronunciation of this character. The second example, kai, is the Japanese pronunciation so it could have originally been a loanword from Maori or to Maori.

salamander wrote:
3The reason that we say you are..is that you is not a singular or plural,its a dual and goes back to the roman emperors who at times ruled as two people

Do you have a source for this, too?

 
salamander
1079726.  Fri Jun 13, 2014 2:21 am Reply with quote

not really a reply to the above question;although i think it was my old ancient history teacher who told me about the roman empire, and the
modern theories about maori migration trace it back to taiwan 'doug sutton) university of auckland

more on language The emperor claudius tried to revive etruscan ,the semi extinct language of the roman predecessors

 
ConorOberstIsGo
1079845.  Fri Jun 13, 2014 3:29 pm Reply with quote

I think mitochondrial DNA might help plot the spread of peoples in that region; as I mentioned in another M thread, this has pointed towards the Native North Americans being of Japanese origin too.

 
salamander
1080135.  Sun Jun 15, 2014 8:57 pm Reply with quote

knightmare wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunstan_Baby_Language

DVD seller wrote:
Neh (I'm hungry)
Owh (I'm sleepy)
Heh (I'm experiencing discomfort)
Eairh (I have lower gas)
Eh (I need to be burped)

I'ld expect a smartphone app if it would be that easy to recognize sounds. Now professionals have to learn the assumed language.

in japan a few years back we had the meow lingua and bow
lingual which translates 5or 6 Basic
Cat and dog phrases such as I'm hungry.

 
CharliesDragon
1099421.  Mon Oct 27, 2014 7:36 am Reply with quote

Scientists have now compelling evidence that human language developed in Africa (before some of us migrated out to Asia, Europe, etc.) and has steadily declined in variations the further from Africa the migraters got. I'm not completely convinced, I can't fully wrap my mind around people just "forgetting" how to make certain sounds, making us end up with Hawaiian for example, a good example of a language with fewer sounds, if their alphabet is anything to go by.

Well, having given it a bit more thought I guess it makes sense, since Norwegian has lost the "th" sound, going with just a plain "t," and is in the process of losing a variation of "sh"/"ch."

http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/business-tech/science/110415/language-science-linguistics-mother-tongue-english-chinese-mandarin-africa

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1377150/Every-language-evolved-single-prehistoric-mother-tongue-spoken-Africa.html#ixzz1JafeJeuI

I know one of those links is to the Daily Flail, but I feel it actually gave a better overview than the Global Post article. And I'm too tired to use donotlink.com or even embed the links.

 
14-11-2014
1104461.  Sat Dec 06, 2014 5:06 pm Reply with quote

'yorz wrote:
Slip (knickers in Dutch)


Reversed (phonetic!), "guess" the last English word of each line:

Quote:
Mijn oom vindt kauwen op een stropdas ... (taai)
Dus lijkt hem alles wat ik bak ... (fraai)
Maar hij eet liever dan patat ... (chips)
En kijkt dan van de pitten ... (pips)

Hij heeft waarschijnlijk ook een slecht ... (bed)
Waarin hij constant in een kuil ... (pit)
Ik zei: 'Ik denk dat u vervloekt ...' (bent)
'Omdat u voedsel enkel ingeblikt ...' (kent)

Hij schold toen zwaaiend met een stok: '...' (Stik!)
Als ik zo over mijn kort lontje ...,' (wik)
'Denk ik dat ik een goede uitslag ...' (scoor)
'Als ik hiermee door een mannelijk zwijn ...' (boor)

Maar ik, die met kritiek wacht, ...: (weet)
Dat hij zich altijd met zijn partner ... (meet)
Omdat hij vroeger steeds te laat ... (leed)
Van wat zij op een afspraak ...: (deed)

Dat hij van haar gesluierd ... (veelt)
Dat zij het bier verschaald ... (steelt)
En in de glazen woedend ... (pist)
Omdat ze van geen kaartspel ... (wist)

Als hem wat hem bedwelmde ... (drukt)
En hij daarvan ge´rriteerd ... (bukt)
Als alles wat hij opborg ... (stoort)
En de tandarts hem verveeld ... (boort)

Wordt zelfs een medicijn ... (druk)
Gaat zijn relatie die al vastzat ... (stuk)
De keuken die nog was gesloten ... (lokt)
Hij die een blauwtje heeft gelopen ... (wokt)

Niet dat mijn oom dat elke dag ... (dee(d))
Naar de Chinees mag ik altijd in mei ... (mee)
Hij neemt dan zelf nasi en voor mij ... (mie)
En beide voor de vrouwen want die zijn ... (bi)

Nu ben ik mijn beheersing nogal ... (kwijt)
Omdat hij zijn servet steeds goed ... (rijt)
Niet dat ik om zo'n scheurtje ... (tier)
Maar het zijn er naar ik vrees ... (vier)

 

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