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The matter could have been expanded upon (INEQUALITY)

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Should Fry have talked about this?
 50%  [ 1 ]
 50%  [ 1 ]
Yes and no
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I'm stupid and I don't understand nothing
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Total Votes : 2

1003409.  Tue Jun 11, 2013 7:37 am Reply with quote

Hullo. When in the episode Inequality, the scapegoat was being discussed, Mr Fry talked about the classical "scapegoat" in judiasm. But what was not mentioned is that the scapegoat is actually out of a job. The job has nowadays gone to our dear friend, the chicken (or hen, or rooster... well, poultry in general at least.)

The ritual of Kapores (from the heeb-word Kapparah, plural Kapparot (atonement)), involves taking a chicken and swinging it in a wildly fashion over your head until it dies. If you are a more modest, reformed and enlightened jew, you just swing it a little over your head, cruel death by swinging not included. If you are a little more reformed, you ignore this ritual. If you are even more reformed, you are an atheist.

There are really funny (if you like chickens, horrifying) videos of this on youtube. Please check them out. And what's more, it's QUITE INTERESTING. I fail to see how Mr. Fry could neglect to bring it up, him being a fellow red sea pedestrian and everything.

Cheers / Richard Brorsson

1003418.  Tue Jun 11, 2013 8:19 am Reply with quote

I think he's ethnically but not religiously Jewish, so it's entirely possible that he wasn't taught about this tradition during childhood.

Also, he doesn't do the research. I'm not aware of the ethnic or religious leanings of the elves for that series.

1003477.  Tue Jun 11, 2013 12:05 pm Reply with quote

You're partly right. Yes, Stephen is "ethnically" jewish. But two things:

1: According to judaism, you are jewish if your mother is jewish. If you believe or not makes NO difference. If you convert to another religion, you loose many priviliges within different jewish dominations, especially the more orthodox ones. But it does not matter that what you believe, you are still 100% jewish. Moses and Stephen Fry and Jesus are ecqually jewish. (Or red sea pedestrians as I like to call us). Therefore, I wanted him to know about this tradition for CULTURAL reasons, not religious. See what I mean? It's about tradition, not religion.

2: It's true Stephen doesn't do the research, but he improvises a lot. So when a tradition that his people traditionally has followed which is very interesting pops up as a reasonable subject of discussion, he could clearly have mentioned it. Also, I could rephrase it to: The elves should have told him to mention it. That wasn't my point. My point is: It should have been mentioned.[/quote]

1003480.  Tue Jun 11, 2013 12:13 pm Reply with quote

If you are even more reformed, you are an atheist

But it does not matter that what you believe, you are still 100% jewish.


1003490.  Tue Jun 11, 2013 12:34 pm Reply with quote

Sorry, was there a question?

You are jewish if your mother is jewish, even if you are an atheist. There is a denomination called reconstructivist judaism that teach that there is no God (or at least, belief in God is not important). They instead celebrate religious ideas because it keeps the jewish people together. They are still jewish, even though it is an atheistic (or agnostic) form of religion (like buddhism). 10 % av all religious jews in the US are reconstrutivist jews.

1003491.  Tue Jun 11, 2013 12:40 pm Reply with quote

That must be a millstone for those who want to completely swear off their Jewishness, then - the fact that they can't.

Spud McLaren
1003492.  Tue Jun 11, 2013 12:45 pm Reply with quote

Is it a fact? If an individual says he is no longer Jewish, then the Jewish community's saying that he is still Jewish is neither here nor there.

Sadurian Mike
1003495.  Tue Jun 11, 2013 12:53 pm Reply with quote

A club you not only don't ask to join, but one that you cannot leave either.

1003615.  Tue Jun 11, 2013 9:29 pm Reply with quote

In terms of Kapores, it should be noted that this was a practice by some Jews that has been denounced by other Jews for centuries, and tends to be practiced by ultra orthodox Haredi Jews. Even many orthodox Jews don't support this practice, let alone take part.

That aside, Judaism is not an easy thing to define. You have a Jewish religion, and you have a Jewish race, and I personally think there should also be included a Jewish culture.

In religion, there are rules about whether you're considered eligible for being Jewish based on your mother, etc, but this doesn't mean you have to identify yourself as Jewish by religion if you don't want to.

As a race, Judaism is recognised by law in many countries because it used to be a rather "closed" religion, in that you tended to only be Jewish if you were born to, rather than converted. In the 20th century there has been a rise in conversions to Judaism, but it's still not widely accepted, and the numbers are still pretty low compared to other faiths because there is practically no proselytising to encourage people to convert.

As I mentioned, I'd add culture. I identify myself as ethnically Jewish, but am an Atheist. However, that doesn't preclude me from observing/celebrating some of the festivals and days of rememberences that help me and other like minded people because it's a "Jewish thing" and allows you to identify yourself within a community.

1005104.  Mon Jun 17, 2013 10:57 pm Reply with quote

Hang on

I think he's ethnically but not religiously Jewish

What the fuck does that mean?

Unless I'm greatly mistaken there is no such thing as ethnicaly Jewish.

Yes I KNOW - there are those who claim some bloodline but they are (frankly) nutters.

Jewish is a religious statement - any other interpretation means the person uttering it is a twat and should be (at least) locked up and/or killed.

Just to head off the Jewish mafia - I may be either ethnically or religiously Jewish - YOU figure it out.

1005110.  Tue Jun 18, 2013 12:54 am Reply with quote

As I explained earlier, the Jewish religion used to be very closed and you had to be born into the religion. Even today, with conversion into Judaism not unheard of, it's still quite a low number.

As such, several countries, including the UK, view Judaism as an ethnoreligious group.

It's not alone, the Druze and Copts also tend to be viewed in a similar way, as do Sikhs, Serbs and other groups around the world.

To deny that people can be ethnically, but not religiously Jewish, would be to deny the same to many other groups, who make up a far greater population than the Jews, and would be denying a recognition in law.

1005238.  Tue Jun 18, 2013 11:36 am Reply with quote

bob always struggles with this one, and I really don't know why. Let's make it easy with examples.

Sammy Davis Jr practised the Jewish faith, but he was a black man of African and Cuban ancestry. Religiously Jewish, but not ethnically Jewish.

Bob Dylan (real name Robert Zimmerman) is descended from Lithuanian and Ukrainian Jews who emigrated to the USA. But the religion that he practises is Christianity*. Ethnically Jewish, but not religiously Jewish.

* Or certainly was. It's reported as changing from time to time, and he talks about it even less than he talks about anything else.

1005247.  Tue Jun 18, 2013 11:46 am Reply with quote

Bob Dylan legally changed his name in August of 1962 so i think it's inaccurate to say that Robert Zimmerman is his real name.

1005254.  Tue Jun 18, 2013 12:02 pm Reply with quote

Unless you're his mother...

1005260.  Tue Jun 18, 2013 12:21 pm Reply with quote

And she died in 2000, so you're not.

So OK, his original name was Robert Zimmerman, a name much more resonant of his Jewish roots than is the name Bob Dylan.


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