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Wirld War Two

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Defender113
950541.  Sun Nov 11, 2012 5:21 pm Reply with quote

I live in Osthammar, Sweden, and watched a show of yours recently. A statement that the Second World War, between the UK and Germany, ended in 1990 with the fall of the Wall is incorrect. The war ended May 8, 1945 with the signing of surrender with the Russians, US, UK and France. HOSTILITIES continued for a few weeks, but were not a part of the War. The Second War World ended et al on 31 December, 1946.

Cheers

 
suze
950548.  Sun Nov 11, 2012 6:14 pm Reply with quote

It's more complicated than that!

The UK did not formally make peace with Germany until 1951, and that only with West Germany. Accordingly, it is possible to argue - as we did argue - that the UK remained at war with East Germany right until that country ceased to exist in 1990.

Then again, the USSR declared war on Japan on 9 Aug 1945. If we regard that declaration of war as being part of WWII, then the war is ongoing - neither the USSR nor Russia (as successors to the USSR) has ever made a formal peace with Japan.


WWI did end in 1945, when Germany finally made peace with Costa Rica.

It has been claimed (including, I fear, by me) that Austria and San Marino have never made peace after WWI - but that'll be because they were never at war. The New York Times of 4 Jun 1915 did report that San Marino had declared war on Austria - but this came as news to the Sammarinesi. Austria had recalled its ambassador from San Marino, but that was as far as it went. (The Vatican fell for the old "believing what it read in the newspapers" thing though - in recent years it tried to broker a peace treaty between the two, only to find out that there was no need.)

 
vantheman
950888.  Tue Nov 13, 2012 12:06 pm Reply with quote

suze wrote:
Then again, the USSR declared war on Japan on 9 Aug 1945. If we regard that declaration of war as being part of WWII, then the war is ongoing - neither the USSR nor Russia (as successors to the USSR) has ever made a formal peace with Japan.


Mind you, to follow the 1990 line of argument, that war cannot officially end until the USSR is reconstituted and then makes formal peace with Japan. In the interim, does this mean Latvia is still officially at war with Japan?

 
Defender113
951028.  Wed Nov 14, 2012 11:00 am Reply with quote

suze wrote:
It's more complicated than that!

The UK did not formally make peace with Germany until 1951, and that only with West Germany. Accordingly, it is possible to argue - as we did argue - that the UK remained at war with East Germany right until that country ceased to exist in 1990.

Then again, the USSR declared war on Japan on 9 Aug 1945. If we regard that declaration of war as being part of WWII, then the war is ongoing - neither the USSR nor Russia (as successors to the USSR) has ever made a formal peace with Japan.


WWI did end in 1945, when Germany finally made peace with Costa Rica.

It has been claimed (including, I fear, by me) that Austria and San Marino have never made peace after WWI - but that'll be because they were never at war. The New York Times of 4 Jun 1915 did report that San Marino had declared war on Austria - but this came as news to the Sammarinesi. Austria had recalled its ambassador from San Marino, but that was as far as it went. (The Vatican fell for the old "believing what it read in the newspapers" thing though - in recent years it tried to broker a peace treaty between the two, only to find out that there was no need.)


The year of 1951 you quote apllies to two different peace treaties. These were extensions of two surrenders, on being the surrenders of the German Armed Forces at Reims and Berlin, and the other was an extension of the surrender ceremony on the USS Missouri.

The former was a proposed peace treaty by Josef Stalin whereby Germany would be reunited, would be a neutral and demilitarized country, and have no economic sanctions. This if often referred to as the "Stalin Note".

The latter was a peace treaty with Japan which was more economic and militarily driven by the former Allied Powers, most notably the United States.

The grey area here is "war" and "peace". Take for example the Korean Conflict has never ended. In that there was an armistice but no formal cessations of hostilities, and certainly no one surrended, the war continues.

Both Germany and Japan formally surrendered. The war was over.

Extensions of these surrenders served politics but not much else.

 
Sadurian Mike
964778.  Mon Jan 21, 2013 6:56 am Reply with quote

Much like the date of the start of the Second World War, the end date is one that has been agreed by convention.

The start date can be 3rd September 1939 when Britain and France declared war on Germany, 1st Sept when Poland was invaded, December 8th 1940 when Japan declared war on Britain and the USA, July 7th 1937 when China declared war on Japan... etc etc.

The end date is similarly open to some debate thanks to technical points and nations not being the same as they were when the war started.

What most historians do, therefore, is use the signing of the peace treaty with Germany as the end of the war in Europe, and the treaty with Japan as the end of the war in the Pacific, and thus the end of the Second World War.

Debating why those dates are open to change is interesting in a purely academic way, but is not likely to change the historical record.


(PS, why on earth is this in the 'K' section?)

 
suze
964807.  Mon Jan 21, 2013 7:51 am Reply with quote

Because the OP is Swedish, and the Swedish word for "war" is krig. Maybe.

 
Sadurian Mike
964814.  Mon Jan 21, 2013 8:02 am Reply with quote

That would work. I assume krig is related to krieg?

 
suze
964831.  Mon Jan 21, 2013 8:37 am Reply with quote

Yes it is. Danish, German, Norwegian, and Swedish all use a very similar word for "war"; as far as we can tell it's of Old Persian origin.

Most of the other major languages of Europe use a word correlate with war - the French guerre, Spanish guerra, Polish wojna, and so on. That is actually of Germanic origin, even though German doesn't use it.

The Latin is bellum. It is entirely seriously suggested that modern languages deliberately avoided adopting that word because it was quite similar to bella meaning "beautiful", and war isn't beautiful.

The Icelandic is striš, which is clearly the same word as our "strife".

 
Bondee
964838.  Mon Jan 21, 2013 8:44 am Reply with quote

suze wrote:
The Icelandic is striš, which is clearly the same word as our "strife".


And strafe?

 
'yorz
964840.  Mon Jan 21, 2013 8:48 am Reply with quote

I like the title of this thread. Can almost hear that Scottish bloke from Coast say it :-)

 
suze
964842.  Mon Jan 21, 2013 8:52 am Reply with quote

My first thought was "Yes, probably". But in fact, no.

The ultimate source of the Icelandic word and of English strife is an Old High German word stritan, which meant "to fight".

Strafe is not found in English earlier than 1915. During WWI, there was a popular slogan in Germany which read Gott strafe England (May God punish England), which lead to British people deciding that if the German God wanted to punish England, then maybe England ought to strafe Germany.

So the German verb strafen means "to punish". In WWI, it was used in English to refer to any kind of attack; its more specific meaning of shooting from low flying aircraft is from WWII.

 
AlmondFacialBar
964898.  Mon Jan 21, 2013 10:17 am Reply with quote

suze wrote:
Yes it is. Danish, German, Norwegian, and Swedish all use a very similar word for "war"; as far as we can tell it's of Old Persian origin.

Most of the other major languages of Europe use a word correlate with war - the French guerre, Spanish guerra, Polish wojna, and so on. That is actually of Germanic origin, even though German doesn't use it.


We do actually, but in a broader context than the word "war" describes. The German cognate "Wirren" translates into troubles, strife, riots and upheaval. I'll admit it's not exactly the kind of word you'd hear in a water cooler conversation, though... ;-)

Our word for "war" is the same as in Swedisch, "Krieg".

:-)

AlmondFacialBar

 

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