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925605.  Sat Jul 21, 2012 11:22 am Reply with quote

Key word being 'tend'. ;p

925617.  Sat Jul 21, 2012 11:54 am Reply with quote


925729.  Sun Jul 22, 2012 6:33 am Reply with quote

Arcane wrote:
And "selfish"? It's their post, they can do what they like with it.

It's not their 'conversation' however, that entity in as much as it exists belongs to those people who have participated in it and even in part to those who have read it and unilaterally deciding to mutilate a thread because (more often than not) you do not wish it to be known that you have lost an argument is exactly a selfish act. A reasonable rule of thumb which I'm sure most people apply is to assume that anyone deleting a post lost the argument, and the plot, big-time.
If there is a facility to delete posts, as there is here, then it is obviously allowed.

You're also allowed to change your name to Lord High Ruler Of The Worlld So There Ner Ner Ner Ner Ner but not many people do because it's childish and ill-considered. The facility to edit posts is one that I cherish as I hate seeing spelling mistakes and poor grammar/syntax in my posts - the fact that this enables people to remove the entirity of the text from a post and replace it with just a couple of punctuation marks if they choose is the price I must pay for my editing privileges.

Last edited by Celebaelin on Mon Jul 23, 2012 5:17 am; edited 1 time in total

925740.  Sun Jul 22, 2012 7:20 am Reply with quote

So if you are part of a conversation and no longer wish to participate and then decide to withdraw, would you prefer that other person who is participating chase after you and demand that you continue speaking, even if you felt uncomfortable and didn't wish to continue? Do people stay and babble on in awkward or painful conversations because "it's the done thing" and considered "rude" to not be a part of it?

I had no idea how precious people were about someone elses posts. Is it a particularly English thing, ie, you've done it now we'll make you remember it forever, kind of like the dislike of the French?

I've moderated a couple of sites and I have never encountered such vociferous comments regarding the ownership of someone elses words. As a moderator, we had to close and delete threads a plenty - if it was their wish, it was no problem with us! I'm a member of another forum where requests to close threads and thereby delete them are not given a second thought (of which I have been a member for nearly 3 years, perhaps that's why I'm at a loss to understand the big deal); what's the point of having a forum cluttered with wasted posts and threads that either have not succeeded for whatever reason or the person who went to the trouble of creating them requests that it be closed? A mod here will possibly have to delete them later anyway.

If they want to delete THEIR post, then why is it YOUR problem? Whose place it is to tell anyone whether they should delete their posts or not but a moderator or the person who made it? Same goes with a thread - if the OP went to the trouble of creating it and they wish to withdraw it, as you would with any "faulty product".

Just as long as it's established that you don't have the right to your own words or threads here, folks.

Possession here really is 9/10's of the law XD

Spud McLaren
925741.  Sun Jul 22, 2012 7:25 am Reply with quote

Arcane wrote:
Just as long as it's established that you don't have the right to your own words or threads here, folks.
I'm fine with that. They weren't mine from the moment I uttered/posted them.

925749.  Sun Jul 22, 2012 8:34 am Reply with quote

I've moderated a couple of sites and I have never encountered such vociferous comments regarding the ownership of someone elses words. As a moderator, we had to close and delete threads a plenty

You're not a moderator here, though. Remember that.

I think a board where threads are closed or deleted as a matter of course is a sign of bad moderation. It just indulges flights of neurotic passive-aggression.

Better people learn to converse like adults, which also involves not lashing out in some childish name-calling laced in paroxysms of indulgent self-pity and 'why-oh-why' histrionics any time anyone has the temerity to question what is being said.

Nobody is saying that people should be forced to continue a conversation against their will - but people should at least have the courage to leave what was said alone, for continuity purposes at least.

Unless, of course, the post has nothing more to say that 'oh, it's raining again' - then I would wonder what the point of posting it in the first place was.

Oceans Edge
925754.  Sun Jul 22, 2012 9:05 am Reply with quote

it's certainly not 'an English thing', one of the most voracious forums I know of for not allowing the deletion of posts by a single individual (although yes, old threads are as a matter of course deleted for server space). Anyone editing a post must indicate why, and any attempts to 'rewrite' history in a thread is seriously mocked - that forum is based in Brisbane and is almost exclusively Australian in it's membership.

You may have noticed that the most popular incarnations of forum software (there are a few out there) don't allow for the deletion of posts AFTER a comment has been made. Exactly because it disrupts the flow of conversation, although the edit function remains. The conversation analogy is a good one ... if you were sitting in a coffee shop with a group of people and said something from which a conversation sprung that conversation may very well continue even after you've left, comments regarding your original opinion may take place in your absence, it may duffcock in other directions, but the conversation has a life of it's own. For most people forums are an extension of that and of the idea that once you've said something out loud - it's out there for the whole world to see. Life doesn't give you a lot of do overs - I'm just grateful for the ability to correct my spelling.

I must say I'm rather surprised that with your extensive moderation experience that you seem rather naive in the ways of netiquette.

If you wish to have a conversation in a vacuum, where you control what stays what goes, and who gets to say what when and where.... a blog is a better format than a forum. A blog allows you to engage in a conversation with the world, but control the responses.

Spud McLaren
925770.  Sun Jul 22, 2012 10:12 am Reply with quote

Oceans Edge wrote:
... it may duffcock in other directions...
(bold mine)

Here's a good example of how swift the evolution of language can be (not a dig, O-E). The original Liff was doffcocker and, although swot provided a definition in May 2007, the one that seems to have taken off on these boards is bemahan's of Oct 2009..

Duffcock I like.

925799.  Sun Jul 22, 2012 11:51 am Reply with quote

Duffcock, Bobbitt?

925807.  Sun Jul 22, 2012 12:34 pm Reply with quote

He's more cockedoff... than duffcocked.

925816.  Sun Jul 22, 2012 1:09 pm Reply with quote

Personally, I prefer it if people don't delete or significantly edit their posts other than to correct typos or errors of fact, or to add significant information, but as it is the software here allows people to delete whole posts. We have had at least one poster who went through and deleted her posts in every conversation in which she had taken part when she decided to leave, and I think that's bad netiquette.

Let's remind ourselves that one of the purposes of these forums - though not on the whole of General Banter, though it's surprising what can come up there - is to give the elves a hand with the research. Of course discussions take another turn, and of course in any online community there will be spats - we all know this.

My preferred course of action is to allow people to sort it out themselves like grown-ups wherever possible, and on the whole the posters on this forum are very good at doing that. We do get occasional rows, but generally they blow over. I don't think it's helpful for me as a moderator to hang over things like some sword of Damocles, though I often send a pm or make a comment on the thread to try and simmer things down where necessary.

We do occasionally prune things when the server is threatening to fall over under the weight, but it's almost invariably done from the beginning of chatty threads that are really of no potential help to the elves. I'm leaving this thread up because I think this is an interesting discussion about netiquette, and well worth having from our own perspective.

I have always borne in mind that it is unwise to write anything on any website that you would be uncomfortable with saying if you were standing on a large stage in front of an audience, even if a substantial portion of that audience were your friends.

925882.  Sun Jul 22, 2012 7:30 pm Reply with quote

I made a post in error. It didn't contribute to this thread in any way.

Last edited by Arcane on Sun Jul 22, 2012 10:05 pm; edited 1 time in total

925884.  Sun Jul 22, 2012 7:35 pm Reply with quote

Arcane wrote:
Possession here really is 9/10's of the law XD

And that sums up your point of view really doesn't it? You don't consider that writing a post in a public forum rather than as a PM for example distinguishes what you have written as public property - and if responded to then as common property. Forums are, by their very nature, public and communal; if you want to retain ownership of what you write then don't post it to a public forum. After all you are in fact handing over copyright of anything you post here never mind any responsibility you may consider you have to comment rationally and reasonably rather than to simply vomit out any old tosh and then simply delete it when it is revealed as weakly argued, worthless drivel.

Lots of people lurk and that is a completely valid way to interact with any forum but if you have the conviction to post then you should accept that your development as a poster will quite likely be a matter of record somewhere at least partially if not in toto. For myself I quite like reading the stuff I posted a decade or so ago when I was a total novice (so much so I didn't even know the word 'noob') even though the arrogance and ineptitude of some of it now makes me cringe. In truth the only way to develop your style is to subject yourself to criticism and learn the lessons that only making mistakes can teach you. And no, I'm not going to tell you where you can find that early stuff of mine, but some of it at least it is still out there!

925891.  Sun Jul 22, 2012 8:17 pm Reply with quote

I still don't see why it's such a drama but it only goes to illustrate how out of step I am, thank you for making that clear yet again. I hold that it's not that big a deal, they are just words but nonetheless it seems to be desperately important to not to delete posts so those who don't want to won't and those that do will incur the wrath of the righteous or something... If you make a mistake when painting, do you erase it or leave it there? If you send a report to your boss, do you tell them when they ask you to correct mistakes "no need, it needs to stay just like it is?". Did you edit and correct your schoolwork? Did you retract a statement if said in error during a conversation or are people so convinced of their rightness that it all goes out with "I couldn't possibly ever be wrong and everything stays just like that"?

I must have been away from the Internet the day "the rules" were brought down.

925899.  Sun Jul 22, 2012 8:39 pm Reply with quote

I don't think there's any wrath involved, certainly not on my part, and it's unfair to use the kind of hyperbole demonstrated above although of course that is a common tactic in debates of all sorts, as indeed is calling people for it; it's just that deleting some or all of a given exchange is impolite, obstructive and perhaps even, well... cheating.

As I've already said I'm in favour of editing, it would be hypocritical of me not to be, but that is not the subject - the debate is about deleting posts. Sure you could extend that to editing beyond all recognition from the original post but the meaning is fairly apparent; we all learn more from facing our errors of judgement than from seeking to conceal them.

Arcane wrote:
I must have been away from the Internet the day "the rules" were brought down.

Feeble sarcasm adds nothing to this.


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