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Kissing Cousins

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940537.  Thu Sep 20, 2012 9:04 am Reply with quote

i found this about travellers.


940632.  Thu Sep 20, 2012 4:10 pm Reply with quote

A couple of good articles (yes I know one is Wiki but its pretty comprehensive). The Wiki one also has a link to a list or people who had "cousin" marriages, with a very long list of European Royalty.

Of interest in that list were "double first cousins" who married. Their parents are a pair of brothers and sisters who married another brother and sister, the "double cousins" were their offspring and share the same amount of genetic information as half siblings.

Oceans Edge
940633.  Thu Sep 20, 2012 4:26 pm Reply with quote

MinervaMoon wrote:
I am so sorry for derailing this thread; I have ~~feelings~~ about Star Trek.
suze -- for whom I once demonstrated this -- can vouch for the fact that I can recite "The Trouble with Tribbles" verbatim.

In any case, today I passed this incestuous restaurant on the way back from class.

I know it's kinda sorta a little bit spammy.... but I couldn't resist sharing this for Minerva, who loves her Tribbles, and bemahan who loves her toys

Tribble Toys
(nope I don't get any commission of even thank you for any monies made as a result of this post - it was a public service announcement only - REALLY!)

I shall go lash myself with wet noodles now..

953236.  Thu Nov 29, 2012 2:17 am Reply with quote

In the 2006 book, Iraq (Enchantment of the World, Second), the authors claim that traditionally in Iraq, more than half of all brides and grooms marry their first or second cousin.

This is not rare for most countries prior to the 20th century, and some historians claim that as much as 80% of all marriages in history were to first cousins.

953611.  Sat Dec 01, 2012 1:42 pm Reply with quote

CB27 wrote:
If you go back to antiquity when humans lived in small groups, we would not have survived had it not been for sexual relations between first cousins and at times brothers and sisters.

As much as I personally am not comfortable with the idea of incest and such close relations between cousins, I always wondered why it's claimed to cause so many medical problems today when just a few thousand years ago it went on generation after generation and we survived?

What is incest, really? It seems to depend on who’s doing the comparison. For some, it is sexual congress between two people who are related to any degree whatsoever. For others, it is only incest if it is between siblings, parents with children, or grandparents with grandchildren, and things like cousins and such don’t count.

It might be most reasonable to consider the degree of consanguinity, but few outside North Carolina seem to do so. Here is a measure of “how related” (R) two people are:
  • R = 1: identical twins
  • R = ½: parents/children, brother/sister
  • R = ¼: grandparents/grandchildren, uncle/niece, half-brother/half-sister, double first cousins
  • R = ⅛: great-grandparents/great-grandchildren, great-uncle/grand-niece, half-uncle/half-niece, first cousins
  • R = ¹⁄₁₆: first cousins once removed, double second cousins
  • R = ¹⁄₃₂: second cousins
  • R = ¹⁄₆₄: double third cousins, second cousins once removed
  • R = ¹⁄₁₂₈: third cousins, second cousins twice removed
As you see, it thins out quite quickly once you hit the cousins.

However, for people related to each other more than one way, you do have to add together all that apply. So two people (call them Frodo and Bilbo) who were each other’s first and second cousins, both once removed, would be related to each other by R = ¹⁄₁₆ + ¹⁄₆₄ = ⁵⁄₆₄, which is still less than normal first cousins at R = ⁸⁄₆₄ = ¹⁄₈, since 8 > 5.

Even that is a bit of a simplification. For examle, there are actually two kinds of double second cousins. And it gets worse: “When double second cousins (first degree) and double half second cousins are also included, (not shown), it brings the total to 6 different types. For the same reasons there are 9 possible kinds of double third cousins and 12 kinds of double fourth cousins.”

Animal breeders need to worry about these things, but people, for the most part, never do. Whether they should or not is a different question.

The legal situation of cousin marriage in the United States is surprisingly complicated.
  • Twenty-five states forbid it altogether.
  • First cousin marriage is allowed in North Carolina provided they are not double first cousins.
  • First cousin marriage is allowed in Arizona if both are 65 or older, or one is unable to reproduce.
  • First cousin marriage is allowed in Illinois if both are 50 or older, or one is unable to reproduce.
  • First cousin marriage is allowed in Indiana if both are at least 65.
  • First cousin marriage is allowed in Maine if couple obtains a physician's certificate of genetic counselling.
  • First cousin marriage is allowed in Utah if both are 65 or older, or if both are 55 or older and one is unable to reproduce.
  • First cousin marriage is allowed in Wisconsin if the woman is 55 or older, or one is unable to reproduce.
How this interacts with laws regarding gay marriage is curious at best.

966806.  Sat Jan 26, 2013 5:30 pm Reply with quote

The definition of kinship, and therefore who is and is not a cousin, is not as clear-cut as some people think! In some cultures, people that Westerners would unquestioningly consider relatives would not be considered as such (and would therefore be fair game for marriage.)

The anthropologist Lewis Henry Morgan identified six types of kinship: Hawaiian, Crow, Sudanese, Iroquois, Omaha, and Eskimo. Here's a chart that explains the differences (e.g. some systems consider the children of your maternal aunts and paternal uncles to be siblings, not cousins) :


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