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suze
889939.  Tue Feb 28, 2012 12:32 pm Reply with quote

Not being a rugby fan, I fear that I've never heard of Mr Owens - but I don't think that referees can really be counted as professional sportsmen.

At present I can only speak anecdotally about both rugby and Wales. But I have heard my husband called "gay" by a rugby playing acquaintance for the heinous crime of purchasing a non-alcoholic drink in a public house, and I have seen an individual (I didn't know him) being refused entry to a public house in Wales because "we don't have queer boys in here".

I have not seen the latter thing happen in England; I have not heard a football player make the former comment. In neither case is this to say that they have never happened.

 
Arbalest
889951.  Tue Feb 28, 2012 12:54 pm Reply with quote

suze wrote:
Not being a rugby fan, I fear that I've never heard of Mr Owens - but I don't think that referees can really be counted as professional sportsmen.


You are probably right- for one thing, they probably don't earn as much money as other people involved, and aren't involved in the game in the same way as players!

suze wrote:
At present I can only speak anecdotally about both rugby and Wales. But I have heard my husband called "gay" by a rugby playing acquaintance for the heinous crime of purchasing a non-alcoholic drink in a public house,


Ah, casually homophobic comments certainly! However much the excuse of "oh, can't you take a joke?" comes into it.

suze wrote:
and I have seen an individual (I didn't know him) being refused entry to a public house in Wales because "we don't have queer boys in here".

I have not seen the latter thing happen in England;


Well that is a terrible thing. A terrible indictment against the public house and its landlord.

I have lived some time in Wales, and spent too much time of it inside its public houses, and have never seen anything comparable to that- but I have heard racism and all sorts of bigotry here- as I have also heard- at least as much - in England.

I hope you will not let one incident make you tar an entire country with one brush.

 
Sadurian Mike
889956.  Tue Feb 28, 2012 12:59 pm Reply with quote

Is being gay in Wales as bad as being English in Wales, I wonder?

 
soup
889973.  Tue Feb 28, 2012 1:24 pm Reply with quote

A gay Englishman in Wales would be SOL

 
Arbalest
889986.  Tue Feb 28, 2012 2:01 pm Reply with quote

soup wrote:
A gay Englishman in Wales would be SOL


Sais o Loegr doesn't seem to make sense.. hmmm...
Any chance of a clue?

Ah. Just Googled. I see what you did there, you clever thing! ;-)

There was I, hoping that a sweeping generalised insult based on one anecdotal piece of evidence might not lead to general acceptance.

Too late! ;-)

Nope, all good fun.

 
soup
889994.  Tue Feb 28, 2012 2:34 pm Reply with quote

Tell you what Arbalest here is an emoticon :o) [1]to be used on any of my posts whenever you feel I might just be taking the post before to a further level without being too serious. Rather than accepting a sweeping generalisation used as an insult.

[1] Generally people can work out the meaning without being spoonfed just what they should be thinking at every other word, so I tend not to use them.

 
suze
890021.  Tue Feb 28, 2012 6:17 pm Reply with quote

Arbalest wrote:
I hope you will not let one incident make you tar an entire country with one brush.


I shall try not to - as I said earlier, I'm only in a position to be anecdotal but that has been my anecdotal experience. There are assholes in every country, it's fair to say.

For instance, one of "my" countries is Poland, but I certainly can't be doing with the attitudes that many Poles hold towards people of colour. Sure, you'll sometimes hear those attitudes expressed in England and Wales too - but by now they are considered unacceptable in polite company, which is not yet the case in Poland.

It will be a long time before a football player or a motorcycle speedway rider - they being the main spectator sports in Poland - comes out as gay. To misquote Reginald D Hunter, it's only in very recent years that Poland has accepted a footballer coming out as black.

 
Arbalest
890028.  Tue Feb 28, 2012 7:09 pm Reply with quote

soup wrote:
Tell you what Arbalest here is an emoticon :o) [1]to be used on any of my posts whenever you feel I might just be taking the post before to a further level without being too serious. Rather than accepting a sweeping generalisation used as an insult.

[1] Generally people can work out the meaning without being spoonfed just what they should be thinking at every other word, so I tend not to use them.


Oh, Indeed, and I hope that anyone reading the above texts would realise that that both were light hearted. I certainly did not read any offence into your text.

Apologies for whatever offence the emoticons caused. I rather liked your reply, and chuckled at it, as it happens.

 
Arbalest
890029.  Tue Feb 28, 2012 7:17 pm Reply with quote

suze wrote:


I shall try not to

Good good. And all I have read from you would assume that.
suze wrote:
There are assholes in every country, it's fair to say.

Absolutely!

suze wrote:
For instance, one of "my" countries is Poland, but I certainly can't be doing with the attitudes that many Poles hold towards people of colour. Sure, you'll sometimes hear those attitudes expressed in England and Wales too - but by now they are considered unacceptable in polite company, which is not yet the case in Poland.

It will be a long time before a football player or a motorcycle speedway rider - they being the main spectator sports in Poland - comes out as gay. To misquote Reginald D Hunter, it's only in very recent years that Poland has accepted a footballer coming out as black.


And that (assuming it's truth- really not trying to be awkward here, but can't see any way else to say it) is something to take into account in what you say in conversations, the way you vote (if you live there) and how you behave in Poland.

 
suze
890033.  Tue Feb 28, 2012 7:28 pm Reply with quote

Oh, it certainly is.

As a Polish citizen I have the right to vote in Polish elections, but the only time I've actually done was when I happened to be in Poland on polling day. Since the party for which I voted on that occasion in 2007 no longer exists, it's fair to say that my contribution to Poland's electoral history has been minimal !

As for how one behaves when there, this can be tricky. "My city" in Poland is Gdańsk - one of Poland's most "Westernized" cities - and most of my friends there are teachers or journalists. Accordingly, you'll not be surprised to learn that the Poles I know do not hold the unreconstructed views which are otherwise still common through the former Soviet bloc.

A woman on her own just would not go into one of the more traditional blue collar drinking dives that Gdańsk has to offer. But a group of women who give as good as they get just might (i.e. have done) - and even so, yes, I've had to bite my lip a couple of times.

 
Arbalest
890034.  Tue Feb 28, 2012 7:51 pm Reply with quote

suze wrote:
Oh, it certainly is..


And the rest of the quote, as it were.

I am sure you are doing your bit when you are in Poland, and by what I have read of you on these forums (if that makes sense!) can't think of a better person to be doing it, however little impact one person can have!

But still has little relevance to do with how you would behave in Wales.... (resisting impulse to put emoticons in text!)

Indeed, it is necessary to make a stand, and to decide when it it is best, and how to make that stand does depend on the society you are in.

Many people in Wales make a point of saying that they are more inclusive of people of differing colours, faiths and erm, sexual inclinations? Sounds a bit clumsy.. than people in England. I have never been completely convinced by this, though the situation (in my view) is different in many ways. That is why I was interested in your views regarding Wales, as it is always good to get another persons view to add to or challenge your own.

Anyhow, thank you for your input.

 
soup
890047.  Tue Feb 28, 2012 9:43 pm Reply with quote

Arbalest wrote:

Apologies for whatever offence the emoticons caused. I rather liked your reply, and chuckled at it, as it happens.


None needed I took the wrong meaning[1] from your post it "got my goat" and I became (became?) a bit of an arse.

[1] I read it as, that you disapproved of me spreading a sweeping generalisation as a joke and that you were only using emoticons to cover any later accusations of nastiness by saying " it was a joke".

 
Arbalest
890097.  Wed Feb 29, 2012 5:56 am Reply with quote

soup wrote:

None needed I took the wrong meaning[1] from your post it "got my goat" and I became (became?) a bit of an arse.


No, no. My fault for not being careful how some attempts at humour appear in this form of communication.

soup wrote:
[1] I read it as, that you disapproved of me spreading a sweeping generalisation as a joke and that you were only using emoticons to cover any later accusations of nastiness by saying " it was a joke".


It was meant to be a tongue-in cheek by being over the top gibe at/with suze. Another failed attempt at humour!

 
dr.bob
890131.  Wed Feb 29, 2012 7:23 am Reply with quote

suze wrote:
I have seen an individual (I didn't know him) being refused entry to a public house in Wales because "we don't have queer boys in here".

I have not seen the latter thing happen in England; I have not heard a football player make the former comment. In neither case is this to say that they have never happened.


Well, the former certainly has

 
soup
890160.  Wed Feb 29, 2012 8:17 am Reply with quote

dr.bob wrote:

Well, the former certainly has


I seem to remember that . Was the staff/land person not saying it wasn't that they were gay but 'even' a heterosexual couple, who had been asked to stop snogging several times and didn't, would have been ejected? Whilst the couple said they were ejected for being a same sex couple who were engaged in a one off light kiss.
Didn't follow it closely enough to form an opinion beyond the fact that the gay couple said it was a kiss the bar staff said it was a series of full on snogs so I started thinking of perspectives etc rather than the sexuality of those involved.

 

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