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Delenda Carthago

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Flash
38667.  Mon Dec 12, 2005 7:13 am Reply with quote

But we like the idea of untruths which are "even less true" than others.

 
Celebaelin
47094.  Sun Jan 22, 2006 5:19 am Reply with quote

Rather gratifyingly I have now recieved a reply to my e-mail (see post 38396)

Quote:
Dear [Celebaelin]

I see that you are deep in study of this matter, but I'm not qualified to answer your questions about Latin grammar in Plutarch, or Latin translation of Plutarch. It might be more useful to investigate the original Greek. The Loeb Classical Library will have the English translation facing the Greek.

We wish you good luck in your pursuit of Plutarch's ideas.

Frances B. Titchener
Professor of History and Classics
Utah State University

which is as courteous and helpful an answer as anyone could expect to recieve under the circumstances. If I manage to find the Loeb Classical Library version I'll post on the results of that.

http://www.hup.harvard.edu/loeb/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loeb_Classical_Library#Plutarch

A quick check confirms that Plutarch is the principle source

Quote:
From this time, in season and out of season, he kept repeating the cry: "Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam." (Moreover, I advise that Carthage should be destroyed. - Plutarch, Life of Cato)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cato_Major

 
mckeonj
47133.  Sun Jan 22, 2006 10:59 am Reply with quote

Regarding the conciseness of Latin, I am vain enough to think that my signuture tag, what I made up, is quite neat. Anyone care to construe?

 
QI Individual
47513.  Tue Jan 24, 2006 4:25 pm Reply with quote

Ad Fundum!


<Ad Fundumissimum?>

 
mckeonj
47519.  Tue Jan 24, 2006 4:58 pm Reply with quote

QI Individual wrote:
Ad Fundum!


<Ad Fundumissimum?>

Ita est!

 
mckeonj
47535.  Tue Jan 24, 2006 5:40 pm Reply with quote

Carthaginem esse Delendam (censco) were the words with which Cato the Elder concluded every speech in the Roman Senate. More usually quoted "Delenda est Carthago". They are now proverbial, and mean, "That which stands in the way of our greatness must be removed at all hazards." [Brewer: The Dictionary of Phrase and Fable: 1894]

 
Celebaelin
47542.  Tue Jan 24, 2006 6:13 pm Reply with quote

Buuuuuut what's their source?

 
mckeonj
47714.  Wed Jan 25, 2006 5:41 pm Reply with quote

Celebaelin wrote:
Buuuuuut what's their source?

The prime source does not exist because somebody burnt down the library. All we have is a chain of citations of the source material, passing through several translations. For what you do have, thank the Arabs and John Abelard.

 
Celebaelin
47715.  Wed Jan 25, 2006 5:54 pm Reply with quote

Which library was burnt down? I assume you're not talking about Alexandria as surely other copies of documents pertaining to the Roman Senate would exist?

Anything you can tell me about the source documents that do exist, or did exist, can only add to my chances of checking on this as far as I am able by looking at work that has gone on before. Plutarchos I have to assume didn't quote Latin or Professor Titchener (replying for The International Plutarch Society) would doubtless have mentioned it but all the material I've found, when it cites a source, uses 'Plutarch'.

 
mckeonj
47719.  Wed Jan 25, 2006 6:17 pm Reply with quote

If earlier sources did turn up, say for example in the library at Herculaneum, what's the betting that 'they' wouldn't want you to see them, as 'they' did with the Qumran material?

 
Celebaelin
47723.  Wed Jan 25, 2006 6:29 pm Reply with quote

I'm sorry but I don't know of any conspiracy, grand or otherwise, to keep or even supply knowledge. Everything I know so far is the result of my own work; uphill and thankless struggle as it may be; I'm trying to be thorough but how well that will work out remains to be seen.

Tell me about the Qumran material by all means but I think I should say that this is nothing that I've heard about before.

 
mckeonj
47777.  Thu Jan 26, 2006 6:40 am Reply with quote

Qumran is the location of the 'Dead Sea Scrolls', here is a good place to view images:
http://www.ibiblio.org/expo/deadsea.scrolls.exhibit/intro.html
Herculaneum library - Notes from Brigham Young University:
http://magazine.byu.edu/article.tpl?num=44-Spr01

 

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