View previous topic | View next topic

Series I, Episode 2: International

Page 3 of 4
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

eggshaped
848911.  Wed Sep 21, 2011 8:11 am Reply with quote

Sadly, apart from Iceland and Istanbul, I didn't get much travelling done last year. Maybe Japan, Jordan and Jamaica this year. :)

 
Ian Dunn
848924.  Wed Sep 21, 2011 9:18 am Reply with quote

eggshaped wrote:
Maybe Japan


Brave thing for a QI researcher to do.

 
Neotenic
848925.  Wed Sep 21, 2011 9:22 am Reply with quote

Egg will just have to take his Museum of Curiosity business cards with him.

 
Ian Dunn
848926.  Wed Sep 21, 2011 9:24 am Reply with quote

Neotenic wrote:
Egg will just have to take his Museum of Curiosity business cards with him.


Otherwise he can just say: "It was the Americans! They made us do it! By the way, did you know that the man who help dropped the bomb as one of the Marx brothers?"

 
eggshaped
848946.  Wed Sep 21, 2011 10:47 am Reply with quote

Interesting article on Japan and the bomb, which I think would be a nice Gen Ig if true, but which I imagine we're not going to run:

Quote:
Tsuyoshi Hasegawa - a highly respected historian at the University of California, Santa Barbara - has marshaled compelling evidence that it was the Soviet entry into the Pacific conflict, not Hiroshima and Nagasaki, that forced Japanís surrender.


http://articles.boston.com/2011-08-07/bostonglobe/29861790_1_hiroshima-tsuyoshi-hasegawa-japan-surrender

Posted without prejudice.

 
djgordy
848951.  Wed Sep 21, 2011 10:54 am Reply with quote

I think it has long been established that Japan was ready to surrender before the Americans dropped their bombs. The reason for dropping the first bomb was as a demonstration of American might to the Soviet Union. The reason for dropping the second bomb was to shew that there was more than one bomb.

 
Ian Dunn
848966.  Wed Sep 21, 2011 11:18 am Reply with quote

eggshaped wrote:
Interesting article on Japan and the bomb, which I think would be a nice Gen Ig if true, but which I imagine we're not going to run:

Quote:
Tsuyoshi Hasegawa - a highly respected historian at the University of California, Santa Barbara - has marshaled compelling evidence that it was the Soviet entry into the Pacific conflict, not Hiroshima and Nagasaki, that forced Japanís surrender.


http://articles.boston.com/2011-08-07/bostonglobe/29861790_1_hiroshima-tsuyoshi-hasegawa-japan-surrender

Posted without prejudice.


I mentioned something akin to this on the General Ignorance forum but in a different and I think more interesting way - "In which year did the Second World War end?"

According to Jonathan Clements, anime expert and indeed expert in just about anything Japanese, due to the Russian invasion of the Kuril Islands in the dying days of the war, WWII is still going on between Russia and Japan on paper, and did not end in 1990 as QI once claimed. The islands are still disputed to this day.

This was written by Clements for the DVD liner notes for the anime SHE The Ultimate Weapon, republished in his brilliant book Schoolgirl Milky Crisis: Adventures in the Anime and Manga Trade.

Quote:
Hokkaido is also a symbol of the Cold War. In the closing days of World War Two, Soviet Russia declared war on Japan, hoping to seize as much of it as it could before the inevitable Japanese surrender. Fighting in the north was minimal - although a group of heroic young radio operator girls famously committed suicide rather than surrender to the approaching Russians. To this day, two islands off Hokkaido's north coast remain disputed territory, home now to a Russian submarine and oil prospectors.

Hokkaido is not merely the place where the Cold War looks Japan right in the face, it is a reminder that the Russian advance could have proceeded closer to Tokyo, dividing Japan into a communist north and capitalist south, like Korea. For the Japanese, it brings the most unpleasant thought of all - that the horrific devastation of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, in speeding a Japanese surrender, may have saved millions of Japanese lives from division and conflict. The captured islands remain such a hot topic in Japan that the country has still not officially signed a peace treaty with Russia. In Hokkaido, at least on paper, World War Two is still raging.

 
clack
848973.  Wed Sep 21, 2011 11:42 am Reply with quote

Quote:
I think it has long been established that Japan was ready to surrender before the Americans dropped their bombs.


Wrong : http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/08/hiroshima_hoax_japans_wllingne.html

 
CB27
848986.  Wed Sep 21, 2011 12:28 pm Reply with quote

I don't think it's as simple as saying it's wrong, there are differing views among experts and scholars. From what I've seen, there are compelling arguments for both sides and it's a question of interpretation.

One of the biggest problems for historians is that it was the Emperor who too the decision to surrender, and his advisors and generals were split on the question of how well Japan would fare.

Another problem is how much knowledge did the Americans have of the Soviet forces, who were about to attack Japan at the same time. If they knew the scale (I think it was something like 1.6m Soviet troops), would they have held back to see if this changed things?

I don't think this is as black and white as some people on either side of the argument would like to make it out to be.

 
clack
849009.  Wed Sep 21, 2011 1:08 pm Reply with quote

Quote:
I don't think it's as simple as saying it's wrong, there are differing views among experts and scholars.
Sorry, I should have been more explicit.

What's wrong is the statement that it has been "long established" that Japan was prepared to surrender before the bomb was dropped. As you say, the matter is disputed.

 
bobwilson
849078.  Wed Sep 21, 2011 6:41 pm Reply with quote

I'd say that it was inevitable that Japan was going to be defeated - the question was how that defeat should play out.

The famous phrase "the war had developed.....not necessarily to our favour" gives an indication of the Japanese mindset. And given the type of society it was - the mindset of the ruling group can probably be taken as the mindset of the general populace.

 
djgordy
849108.  Thu Sep 22, 2011 1:29 am Reply with quote

clack wrote:
Quote:
I think it has long been established that Japan was ready to surrender before the Americans dropped their bombs.


Wrong : http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/08/hiroshima_hoax_japans_wllingne.html


Having looked at some of the other articles on that site, I doubt its objectivity.

 
Spike
849396.  Fri Sep 23, 2011 8:22 am Reply with quote

Small quibble: the pyramid of Cholula was described as Aztec in this episode; it is Olmec, and was built many years before the Aztec migration into central Mexico. Nor were the pyramids at Teotehuacan Aztec.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Pyramid_of_Cholula

It is possible to do a tour that takes you inside the pyramid of Cholula (or it was in the 80's) although it does not contain a tomb like the Egyptian pyramids. The only tomb found in a Mexican pyramid was at Palenque.

 
Ares
863458.  Thu Nov 10, 2011 10:01 am Reply with quote

(Just watched the whole season up to now, so sorry for bumping this topic)

Actually, the part about the pyramids is up for debate. Though a huge pyramid, the pyramid of Cholula is considered by some not to be the biggest of the world. The white pyramid if Xian is considered by researches (like Phillip Coppens) to be the biggest of the world, with a 450m x 450m square and 300m high base. This would make it bigger than any Aztec of Olmec pyramid.

 
exnihilo
863562.  Thu Nov 10, 2011 7:00 pm Reply with quote

bobwilson wrote:
And given the type of society it was - the mindset of the ruling group can probably be taken as the mindset of the general populace.


I agree with the rest of your post, but that part I cannot. I would suggest that given the type of society the mindset of the ruling group was utterly divorced from that of the general populace.

 

Page 3 of 4
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

All times are GMT - 5 Hours


Display posts from previous:   

Search Search Forums

Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group