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844468.  Thu Sep 08, 2011 12:53 am Reply with quote

Where can the river Rhine be found, originating in the Swiss Alps, and where does it reach the North Sea (or: draw it on a map, it just roughly matters where it begins and where it reaches the North Sea)?

Last edited by on Thu Sep 08, 2011 6:52 am; edited 1 time in total

844476.  Thu Sep 08, 2011 2:44 am Reply with quote

Wikipedia so may be a heap of crap. :-
844510.  Thu Sep 08, 2011 6:17 am Reply with quote

[quote="soup"]Wikipedia so may be a heap of crap. :-


Give yourself 10 internet points for the awareness, and minus 10 for the crap.

Even if you would call anything with the word Rhine in it the Rhine, like the Niederrhein on this map, a forfeit is that it reaches the North Sea. If you would jump in the Rhine in the area of Schaffhausen in Switserland, and you'ld go with the flow, statistically you'll have a chance of 66.67% (6 out of 9) to end up in the river Waal. The other 33.33% (3 out of 9) becomes the Pannerdensch Kanaal, which flows towards the river Lek (22.22%, 2 out of 9) or the river IJssel (11.11%, 1 out of 9). If we would forget about the Keteldiep, the Kattendiep, Ketelmeer and the IJsselmeer, the first sea you'll see isn't the North Sea but the Wadden Sea.

The John Frost bridge, the A Bridge Too Far, in the city of Arnhem may be called the Rijnbridge, but that's just about two-thirds of a Rhein in Germany (the bridge used in the movie A Bridge Too Far is the IJsselbridge in Deventer).

Actually the map isn't that wrong, it mentions the IJssel, Lek and Waal. The Niederrheine (Nederrijn) isn't just indicating an area, there's actually a river called the Nederrijn. Also mentioned on the map. The Nederrijn becomes the river Lek (Leak):


None of the Rhine-named rivers (which are in a way part of the Rhine river system of river delta) ever reach the sea. A rough indication:

Waal: Rijn, Waal, Boven-Merwede, a few other rivers and such, North Sea

Lek: Rijn, Pannerdensch Kanaal, Nederrijn, Lek, Noord, a few other rivers and such, North Sea.

IJssel: Rijn, Pannerdensch Kanaal, IJssel, Keteldiep or Kattendiep, Ketelmeer, IJsselmeer, Wadden Sea (, North Sea).

There's also a river called the Old Rhine, Roman, but as such that isn't part of the system and you may never get there at least 7 out of 9 times (when using the Waal or IJssel).

No matter how one puts it, a river called Rhine (or Nederrijn, or Oberrhein, or ...) never reaches any sea. The first rivers in the system, without Rhine in the name, are the IJssel, Lek and Waal. The name Lek, for example, can be found on your map right under the "L" of "NIEDER- LANDE"). And if the orange rivers all would be called Rhine, there'll be a lot of rivers called Rhine. The Waal is the most important continuation of the river Rhine, albeit the short river near Arnhem rightfully carries the name Netherrhine until it becomes the Lek.

So a forfeit could be any drawn river called Rhine reaching any sea. The river Rhine is shorter than one may think it is, and compliant with the C series-related subject of a river-river-river-river, there are more rivers involded before it reaches the North Sea. If it ever reaches the North Sea, and not the Wadden Sea. If you'ld call the orange river(s) the "Rhine delta", then what about the river Maas? Your map doesn't show that river, which isn't part of the Rhine system.

Last edited by on Thu Sep 08, 2011 4:36 pm; edited 1 time in total
844511.  Thu Sep 08, 2011 6:36 am Reply with quote

Think of the "Oude Rijn" (Old Rhine) as the border of the Roman empire, but now it's no longer a main river at all. Nevertheless the name "Oude Rijn" also can be found on the first map, below the "N" of "NIEDER- LANDE". Perhaps they should have excluded this remainder, between roughly Utrecht and Katwijk.

844627.  Thu Sep 08, 2011 3:57 pm Reply with quote

That's slightly disingenuous. The Waal, Nederrijn (which splits into the Oude Rijn and the Lek) and the IJssel, as well as a few others, are all distributaries of the Rhine, the Schelde and the Maas. Since the Rhine is the largest of those rivers, the "delta" (there's some dispute over whether this is techically a delta) is considered a part of the Rhine. Indeed, the Nederrijn-Lek arm is often referred to as "Rijn".

Also, it's important not to confuse the German term "Niederrhein", meaning the "lower Rhine" (the section of the river from Bonn to the delta), with the Dutch name "Nederrijn", which is the name given to part of one of the distributaries.

The point is that the distributaries are all part of the lower Rhine. That each individual branch is given a separate name is a matter of convenience. This is not the same as a tributary flowing into the main river (the Main, for example, is not part of the Rhine, but flows into it).

1028755.  Tue Oct 15, 2013 4:43 am Reply with quote

The point is that the distributaries are all part of the lower Rhine. That each individual branch is given a separate name is a matter of convenience. This is not the same as a tributary flowing into the main river (the Main, for example, is not part of the Rhine, but flows into it).

Which river has the most possible name changes? The name would be the name of the river on a common local (and Google) map, so no Mittelrheins or Lower Rhines. Including initial brooks and distributaries, excluding different languages and man-made canals. A floating ball determines the end of the river, so the QI-lake in the Nile counts as a name change because the river continues. So I can throw the ball in the Main (1), which empties in the Rhein (2) near Wiesbaden, which becomes the Rijn (language change, still 2), which becomes the Nederrijn (3) with a branch called IJssel (4), which empties in the Kattendiep (5), which empties in a lake.

1028875.  Tue Oct 15, 2013 9:02 am Reply with quote

Surely the White/Ohio/Missouri/Mississippi complex has at least one tributary/tetrabutary/qunibutary/whatever with more names changes than that?

1028930.  Tue Oct 15, 2013 10:52 am Reply with quote

I'm sure there must be many longer chains than five which could be made.

The good husband suggested Oxford as a first starting point. Without going more than a dozen miles from the city, one can find the Tetchwick Brook (1) which feeds the River Ray (2). The River Ray in turn joins the River Cherwell* (3) at Islip, and the River Cherwell joins the River Isis (4) in the middle of Oxford. (Within a couple of hundred yards, in fact, of the running track where Roger Bannister became famous.)

Carry on a mile or so south to Iffley Lock, and the River Isis changes its name to the River Thames (5). Which was rather why Oxford was the first place to suggest itself.

Now, that's five names within a dozen miles of Middle England. With hundreds of miles of Europe or thousands of miles of North America to play with, I'm sure one could get into double figures.

* Indeed, we could almost make a case to count the Cherwell twice. In Banbury this river is pronounced as spelled, but in Oxford it's pronounced as "Charwell".

1029013.  Tue Oct 15, 2013 4:43 pm Reply with quote

Not related to your river-quabbling, but to the name of the thread, so I'm gonna throw it out here anyway.

I think the reason we get names that translate to River-River, Mountain-Mountain and Hill-Hill both in the original language and when tourists visits is that they tack on what it is at the end of it.

For tourists, it's a simple case of needing to define what you're talking about, like the Akerselva river. Since Akerselva translate to The Akers River, tacking on river at the end sounds stupid to people who know Norwegian, but to people who don't it can be useful to know it is a river, since Akerselva might sound like anything from a museum to a shop to a forest if you don't know that "elv" means "river."

It's a similar thing when new people inhabit a new place. The locals calls the river "River", but the new people don't know that means river in that language, they just hear it when referring to that particular river, so they tack on their own word for river. When some time later another group of new people settles you get the process repeated and get [original word for river] [second settlement's word for river] River. To use some modern languages: Rijekaibaia River. River-river River.

1029241.  Wed Oct 16, 2013 12:25 pm Reply with quote

See also Torpenhow Hill.

1029343.  Thu Oct 17, 2013 3:48 am Reply with quote

I thought we'd decided that, although there's a place called Torpenhow in Cumbria (IIRC), there's not actually a hill nearby called Torpenhow Hill.

1029588.  Thu Oct 17, 2013 2:06 pm Reply with quote

Oh facts, facts - don't confuse me with them....

1140827.  Thu Jul 09, 2015 1:28 am Reply with quote

knightmare wrote:
Which river has the most possible name changes?
I don't know which has the most name-changes, but how about this to be getting on with:


1140834.  Thu Jul 09, 2015 4:09 am Reply with quote

Of course, back when I were a nipper* the Rhine ended up in Wales, stopping off for a tour of London on the way.

*ok, maybe a bit further back than that.

1270227.  Wed Jan 10, 2018 10:05 am Reply with quote

In the Netherlands, if you'd swim in a straight line to cross the river Rhine, you'd always end up in the same place. In Germany.

The middle of the river will be the border. If both banks are Dutch indeed, then you're swimming in the Bijland Canal.

The river Rhine of the story A Bridge Too Far, downstream? Wrong river name: that's the Nether Rhine. The river Rhine of Attenborough's movie A Bridge Too Far? Wrong river name, different city: IJssel, bridge near Deventer.


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