View previous topic | View next topic

Norway Tragedy

Page 7 of 9
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9  Next

dr.bob
836371.  Wed Aug 03, 2011 4:03 am Reply with quote

Silverfox wrote:
The west can thank their lucky stars that Islam is divided among themselves. Sunni & Shiite. THIS is the precise reason as to WHY 'democracy' as perceived by the west, will NEVER ever, be an acceptable situation in the ME.


Or, by that logic, in Northern Ireland.

Guess we'd better pack up the Stormont Assembly then and inform them that they're wasting their time.

 
Neotenic
836376.  Wed Aug 03, 2011 4:31 am Reply with quote

Ditto the Indonesian government.

 
Silverfox
836389.  Wed Aug 03, 2011 5:25 am Reply with quote

dr.bob wrote:
Silverfox wrote:
The west can thank their lucky stars that Islam is divided among themselves. Sunni & Shiite. THIS is the precise reason as to WHY 'democracy' as perceived by the west, will NEVER ever, be an acceptable situation in the ME.


Or, by that logic, in Northern Ireland.

Guess we'd better pack up the Stormont Assembly then and inform them that they're wasting their time.


The 'resistance' to change, is steeped in religious belief. From that indoctrination, many other facets emerge. Man's utterly inane, superstitions, actually shackle 'him' to his own solid, immovable post.

John Lennon's 'Imagine' put it most succinctly!

 
dr.bob
836391.  Wed Aug 03, 2011 5:30 am Reply with quote

Silverfox wrote:
The 'resistance' to change, is steeped in religious belief.


And yet we've witnessed seismic and lasting change in Northern Ireland within a remarkably short space of time. Still, why let anything as inconvenient as facts get in the way of your argument, eh?

Silverfox wrote:
John Lennon's 'Imagine' put it most succinctly!


Yeah, it's easy to sing "Imagine no possessions" when you own a gold-plated rolls royce :)

By the way, Silverfox, I'd appreciate it if you'd stop putting links to rabid articles on other websites into your posts without referencing them at all.

If they form part of your argument, then please add a precis of what they say so that people can understand what your point is. Otherwise, it just looks as though you're trying to perform search engine optimisation for those sites to artificially increase their profile, which is not something qi.com is really designed to be used for.

 
Silverfox
836396.  Wed Aug 03, 2011 5:55 am Reply with quote

dr.bob wrote:
Silverfox wrote:
The 'resistance' to change, is steeped in religious belief.


And yet we've witnessed seismic and lasting change in Northern Ireland within a remarkably short space of time. Still, why let anything as inconvenient as facts get in the way of your argument, eh?

Silverfox wrote:
John Lennon's 'Imagine' put it most succinctly!


Yeah, it's easy to sing "Imagine no possessions" when you own a gold-plated rolls royce :)

By the way, Silverfox, I'd appreciate it if you'd stop putting links to rabid articles on other websites into your posts without referencing them at all.

If they form part of your argument, then please add a precis of what they say so that people can understand what your point is. Otherwise, it just looks as though you're trying to perform search engine optimisation for those sites to artificially increase their profile, which is not something qi.com is really designed to be used for.


Uh..OK. I would have thought that anyone reading the previous posts, then reading what I had stated, would have, via the link provided, have been capable of assessing what I was saying. Surely, adding a precis, is merely uttering the same thing in different words? Anyway, different strokes and all that. It's just that the previous debating forum that I was on for more than a decade, had a number of guys who too, were there for ages and we all became accustomed to each other's idiosyncracies and modus operandi.

As to the above, it's not my argument, it's my statement. I always attempt to avoid argument. Why did you think the article was rabid? There were no ad homs or pejoratives within it.

 
dr.bob
836434.  Wed Aug 03, 2011 10:00 am Reply with quote

Silverfox wrote:
Anyway, different strokes and all that.


It's simply that this website has a fairly high google rating and we've had quite a past history of people posting up links with no intention of engaging with any kind of debate, simply to try and improve the google rating of their own sites. That why we're a bit touchy about that kind of thing around here.

Sorry if I over-reacted.

 
Silverfox
836452.  Wed Aug 03, 2011 11:22 am Reply with quote

dr.bob wrote:
Silverfox wrote:
Anyway, different strokes and all that.


It's simply that this website has a fairly high google rating and we've had quite a past history of people posting up links with no intention of engaging with any kind of debate, simply to try and improve the google rating of their own sites. That why we're a bit touchy about that kind of thing around here.

Sorry if I over-reacted.


Point taken and I understand your forum's position. I have no ulterior motive regarding this site. In fact, I have NO site that I wish to improve, or do anything else with. As I stated in my 'welcome' address, the previous site which I attended, was closed down due to a few various factors, including the owner's ailing health. He, at this stage, is not a youngster and it was taking a toll. As you may I have noticed, I didn't even cite the name of the previous forum. I happened to have been the moderator on the 'General' forum for some years. But, that's all history.

As a newbie here, I thoroughly understand the 'pecking' order of things, as 'we' would also put newbies through a bit of rigorous testing & trials...a sort of initiation really. If they put up with the crap, they would stay and go the long miles. Been there...done it...got the T shirt! Just understand that due to the fact that I've 'said my piece' for so many years, over so many varying subjects, I tend to enjoy being more concise than lengthy in my posts. If I happen to make a statement regarding 'X' I'll normally attempt to back it up with credible links, or a single link. This is my manner...I hope you guys accept this and understand where I come from.

In any event, I believe it's my pregrogative to communicate, or debate in the manner to which I'm accustomed and not to be told how to do so, so as to satisfy one or two others. If I decide to remain, you'll get used to me and my eccentricities.

I'm no youngster by any means...but, I'm never adverse to new 'tricks.' This is the beauty of discussion. I learn something new everyday!

You have no need to apologise and you did not over react. You were only 'protecting' your territory. I intend to read as many posts here as possible and try to gain an insight as to how the forum and you guys who 'make' it, tick! I'm beginning to fathom a couple already. Some are witty, dry, serious, comical....when I feel at home, I shall display my peacock tail as well.

Listen...I'm as contentious as hell on a few subjects, as many are as well. We all have conflicting and concurring opinions don't we. If not, it would be a bloody boring planet! Peace guys & gals!! ;)

 
hassan el kebir
836491.  Wed Aug 03, 2011 2:45 pm Reply with quote

Quote:
The 'resistance' to change, is steeped in religious belief.



Not that long ago I wrote this
Quote:
It is very difficult to explain just what it is like to live in a country where almost the entire population absolutely, unquestioningly, totally believes in God and it is this absolute belief that is the core of what makes these people what they are. Europe/the West/call it what you will doesn’t have this sort of belief any longer; WWI and the flu epidemic pretty well put paid to Europe’s belief in God. It is the fact that these opinions are polar opposites, which is why trying to explain certain aspects of life here is so bloody difficult, that you’ll just have to accept that it all makes perfect sense when you live here: God will look after you.



There is no resistance to change, God's got it all under control.

 
Zebra57
836539.  Wed Aug 03, 2011 7:05 pm Reply with quote

In Egypt does this absolute "belief" apply to the Coptic Christians or just the Moslem population?

 
suze
836551.  Wed Aug 03, 2011 8:50 pm Reply with quote

About 85% of Egyptians are Muslim (mostly Sunni), and about 14% Christian (mostly Coptic Orthodox, but perhaps quarter of a million Protestants and a similar number of RCs). There are a few thousand Bahá'í, and a few hundred Jews.

Open atheism is very rare because it's illegal; it is compulsory to be affiliated to one of the Abrahamic religions. Consequently, those who will speak about atheism at all tend to be bloggers using pseudonyms. Any figures that those people give are necessarily very tentative, but they do not dispute that the proportion of Egyptians who do not believe in God is very small - the best estimate seems to be about one quarter of one per cent.

 
Spud McLaren
836650.  Thu Aug 04, 2011 3:33 pm Reply with quote

suze wrote:
... it is compulsory to be affiliated to one of the Abrahamic religions.
Ooh-er. So if I go there, I'll be a criminal, as would every visiting Buddhist, Taoist, Confucianist, Hindu, Jain,etc.?

 
suze
836671.  Thu Aug 04, 2011 6:11 pm Reply with quote

As a mere visitor, you'd be fine. But if you actually wanted to live in Egypt, you'd need to obtain an Egyptian identity card. And to do that, for a long time you needed to declare to which of the Abrahamic religions you belonged. "None of them" was not an option.

Between 2009 and this year's revolution, a small number of people succeeded in registering their religion as "-"; all were Bahá'í. No one has been allowed to register a religion other than the three which are recognized.

How this year's revolution will change all this is not yet clear.

 
otyikondo
836681.  Thu Aug 04, 2011 6:40 pm Reply with quote

sjb wrote:
I think for both me and others here, we're more accustomed to hearing about shootings (but not so much bombs) in Nordic countries being the result of native, non-Muslim folks. Finland in particular comes to mind, which isn't really right of me to conflate Finland and Norway but it is what came to my mind first when the news first broke.

For instance:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kauhajoki_school_shooting
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sello_mall_shooting
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jokela_school_shooting



It's of course a bit late in the day to come back to this remark from Page 3 of the thread, but I've been otherwise engaged.

I think it probably is a bit unwise to throw Finland into the mix in this context, as the first and third examples given were school spree-shootings of the Columbine variety performed by disaffected youths with an IRC-fuelled nihilist philosophy (Auvinen's a BIT more complicated, and one theory suggests online bullying and a failed cyber-romance were additional factors, but...), and the one in the middle was a common-or-garden jealous-lover-takes-it-out-on-woman-and-then-executes-her-colleagues-at-work incident involving a Kosovar Albanian immigrant who had a restraining order out against him.

Hence #2 does not fit in here AT ALL (it wasn't "terrorism" in any shape or form, and this was known to all within an hour of the Sello shootings), and additionally the very precise nature of Breivik's targets - the existing Labour Party apparatus and the brightest stars of the next political generation (and he allegedly had it in mind to take out former PM Gro Harlem Brundtland as well) very much ups the ante from schoolboys working out their angst and their fantasies about Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold.

Breivik's ties with counterjihad groups (or at least his enthusiastic reading of what they had to say - places like Pam Geller's Atlas Shrugs, the Gates of Vienna blog, and Robert Spencer's Jihad Watch are naturally back-pedalling furiously and denying that their often rather strident Islamophobic - and simultaneously pro-Zionist - rhetoric had anything to do with this...) put him into a very different category and cast this all much more in the light of ANOTHER Nordic country, namely Sweden, where the Palme and Lindh assasinations were overtly political acts against the SDP.

I cannot agree with bobwilson's claims about television, but it is interesting that many (mostly on the right) have commented on the cotton-woolly consensus nature of Norwegian politics and have "blamed" the lack of opportunity for "dissenting voices" to be heard.

There is some truth in this, insofar as a reluctance by the mainstream parties in Sweden, Finland, and Norway alike to recognise some legitimate concerns about immigration and integration has allowed the debating chamber to be seized by the small but shrill corps of extremists.

The advance of populist "anti-this and that" parties (not strictly "of the right" - the True Finns, for instance, are as statist as they come on many issues, welfare for instance, and have stolen blue-collar votes from out-of-work Social Democrats) in all three countries, and in Denmark, too, is a reflection of general public ennui with the typical "they all think and look the same" politics.

 
sjb
836712.  Thu Aug 04, 2011 9:28 pm Reply with quote

otyikondo wrote:
Hence #2 does not fit in here AT ALL (it wasn't "terrorism" in any shape or form, and this was known to all within an hour of the Sello shootings)

I think that was the point I was making--I didn't immediately think the Norway tragedy was "terrorism" since I assumed it to be more along the lines of the shootings I had heard of in Finland. And, of course, my assumption was before the facts were fully realized (particularly by me, but also by the press).

I really should visit Norway and Finland so as to stop conflating them. For whatever reason, Sweden being mostly in the middle of them doesn't buffer the conflation at all. And I do reasonably well keeping the other Nordic countries separate in my mind. Hmm.

 
Neotenic
902155.  Mon Apr 16, 2012 1:22 pm Reply with quote

I know there has been talk elsewhere on the boards about the start of this trial, but it does seem to me to be an event worthy of bringing back this specific thread for the subject, rather than it being thrown away in one of the prunable threads - if nothing else, it's probably going to be the lead story on the news every night this week.

So, I was particularly pleased to see that he opened with the standard despot-in-the-dock move, by refusing to recognise the validity of the court.

And his reasoning ties in with what constitutes his defence - he does not recognise the court because it was brought about by parties that, according to him anyway, have policies with which he disagrees. Which is like a criminal here trying that in the Old Bailey because he disagrees with Andrew Lansley's Health Bill.

Oh, he also tried to suggest that the judge may have a conflict of interest, so I would imagine that he's spent some time this year watching tapes of Saddam Hussein's trial.

Of course, the most breath-taking thing that has come out (so far) is that he has managed to convince himself that he was acting in self-defence - a pre-emptive strike against the potential politicans of tomorrow who may bring in even more policies with which he disagrees.

I'm trying to work out if this is the world of the Terminator, or Minority Report. Actually, that second one is probably two jokes for the price of one.

 

Page 7 of 9
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9  Next

All times are GMT - 5 Hours


Display posts from previous:   

Search Search Forums

Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group