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Nikon
887275.  Mon Feb 20, 2012 3:13 am Reply with quote

CB27 wrote:
In 1989 there were 1,387,757 people who claimed to be ethnic Latvians...

They not claimed that they ethnic Latvians!
They just have Latvian nationality.
It is your words - "Nationality and ethnicity are not the same thing"
Therefore I'm interested in - how you canlulated which persent of 1,387,757 who have have Latvian nationality are ethnic Latvians?

 
CB27
887568.  Mon Feb 20, 2012 4:12 pm Reply with quote

Where do you see that 1,387,757 are Latvian nationals? I showed (more than once) that there were in fact 2,666,567 Latvian nationals.

The 1,387,757 figure is from what people put on the cenus themselves.

 
Nikon
887589.  Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:25 pm Reply with quote

Who say about Latvian nationals in 1989? In 1989 was USSR!
The phrase "Latvian nationals" is not mentioned before.
In Latvian Soviet Socialist Republic in 1989 lived 2,666,567 people (all of them was Soviet nationals).
1,387,757 has Latvian nationality
905,515 has Russian nationality
...
If was born baby and one of parents was Russian nationality - then baby became Russian nationality.
After 1991, when was proclaimed Latvian Republic, if one of parents was Latvian nationality - then baby became Latvian nationality.

In 1989 from 1,387,757 people who has Latvian nationality more then 90% was etnic Latvians.
In 2011 ftom 1,284,194 peole who have Latvian nationality less then 60% are etnic Latvians!

In bigest city of Latvia - Riga, more then 60% speek in Russian language (in Riga live half of population of Latvia).
In second bigest city of Latvia - Daugavpils, more then 85% speek in Belarussian, Poland, Russian and Latgalian language.

 
CB27
887605.  Mon Feb 20, 2012 9:05 pm Reply with quote

Can you provide proof for any of the above?

Proof that in 1989 1,387k people in Latvia were deemed Latvian nationals and not ethnic Latvians?

Proof that 905k were deemed Russian nationals and not ethnic Russians?

Proof that in 1989 90+% of "Latvian Nationals" were ethnic (what is this ethnic?)?

Proof that in 2011 less than 60% "Latvian Nationals" were ethnic?

 
Bondee
887693.  Tue Feb 21, 2012 7:00 am Reply with quote

FYI, there's a brick wall just to your left, CB.

 
CB27
887817.  Tue Feb 21, 2012 11:02 am Reply with quote

I get that impression as well :)

 
Zebra57
887943.  Tue Feb 21, 2012 7:09 pm Reply with quote

Moving away from the accuracy of nationality a dispute between Baltic neighbours has broken out.

Latvia claims to be the original home of the Christmas tree (Riga 1510)

Estonia claims to have records that Tallinn merchants first erected a tree in 1441.

 
CB27
887959.  Tue Feb 21, 2012 9:00 pm Reply with quote

I think Harry Hill needs to go out there to umpire :)

 
Nikon
888099.  Wed Feb 22, 2012 11:02 am Reply with quote

CB27,
I 5 times try to get information how you calculate count of ethnic Latvians. You not ansvered me. But now you ask me this question... Ok:
1) In 1989 not exist Latvia. Therefore in worls noone deemed Latvian nationals.
2) In 1989 not exist Russia. Therefore in worls noone deemed Russian nationals.
3) see anwer #1 (and term "ethnic" inserted in talk by you. May be today you will answer me - what is this?)
4) As wee see Latvia lost 1/3 population. Count of people with latvion nationality not go down. Count of people with other nationality go down quicly. All new born get latvian nationality. It is mean - people with latvian nationality is not ethnic latvians)

 
suze
888146.  Wed Feb 22, 2012 12:46 pm Reply with quote

Let's make it easier, since the word "ethnic" seems to be causing some confusion. Let's talk instead about what language people speak as their main language.

The main language of most people in Latvia is Latvian (latviešu). Some people in Latvia have Russian (krievu) as their main language. (And some people have a language which is neither of these, but those people are a small proportion of the population.)

Now, three questions:

1. A baby is born in Latvia. His parents speak Russian, they cannot speak Latvian. Will that baby be a citizen of Latvia? From what you say above, I think the answer is "Yes".

2. When that child is old enough to go to school, will he have to learn Latvian? Or can his parents say "We speak Russian, we do not want our child to speak Latvian"?

2. An adult man went from Moskva to live in Rīga in 1980, and he has lived in Rīga ever since then. He speaks Russian; he cannot speak Latvian. Is that man a citizen of Latvia? I believe the answer to be "No".

 
CB27
888354.  Wed Feb 22, 2012 9:15 pm Reply with quote

Quote:
1) In 1989 not exist Latvia. Therefore in worls noone deemed Latvian nationals.

Actually, in 1989 there existed what was known as the Latvian Soviet Socialist Republic, which technically existed as a separate republic within the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, commonly known as USSR.

It's like saying Scotland, England and Wales don't currently exist because they are part of the United Kingdom, but that doesn't stop them being recognised as separate entities for various studies, including demographics.

Quote:
2) In 1989 not exist Russia. Therefore in worls noone deemed Russian nationals.

See 1.

Quote:
3) see anwer #1 (and term "ethnic" inserted in talk by you. May be today you will answer me - what is this?)

Actually, no, not "inserted" by me, I was quoting sources (which I linked to) which list Ethnic Latvians, Russians and various other ethnic groups. I didn't invent this idea, it exists, it's recognised by the Latvian Government (who report on ethnic groups), the Latvian citizens (who supplied the information as to which ethnic group they belong to), and were previously recognised by the USSR when they ran their own census.

Quote:
4) As wee see Latvia lost 1/3 population. Count of people with latvion nationality not go down. Count of people with other nationality go down quicly. All new born get latvian nationality. It is mean - people with latvian nationality is not ethnic latvians)

The first part is wrong, there were plenty of people who were Latvian nationals who did leave because they did not identify themselves as Latvian. The second part is correct, not all Latvian nationals regard themselves as ethnic Latvians.

 
Sadurian Mike
888407.  Thu Feb 23, 2012 5:14 am Reply with quote

To confuse the issue, in 1944/45 the Soviet government had a deliberate policy of 'Russification' for the Baltic states (including Poland).

The aim was to skew any votes for future voting for a Communist government and joining the USSR, and it largely worked. Basically, Russian soldiers were taught the basics of the language and sent across with papers 'proving' that they were citizens of that country. In Poland thousands suddenly became part of the LWP (People's Army of Poland) and were given citizenship (and the vote), despite most never having set foot in their new country before. This government-sponsored change of nationality almost certainly happened to other future USSR states as well.

Records being difficult to confirm (many having been destroyed, altered, or simply 'not available'), it is not possible to know exactly who, and how many, but the mass immigration of Russians into the Baltic states certainly makes any study of current 'ethnicity' a tricky one.

 
Zebra57
888457.  Thu Feb 23, 2012 7:14 am Reply with quote

Further to SM's comment the whole ethnicity of the Baltic States changed after the start of WW2.

1. Removal of the Jewish population.
2. Deportation and elimination of ethnic Germans.
3. Removal of Baltic nationalists to Siberia etc after 1944.
4. Encouraged immigration of Russians into the Baltic area 1944 onwards.

Therefore that is why ethnicity is often a very "touchy" subject and the question "Who is a Latvian?" can promote very lively debate.

 
Zebra57
1062004.  Fri Mar 07, 2014 6:16 pm Reply with quote

In Latvia there is still a dispute between the definition of Latvian Citizens and Latvian Nationals. According to the latest figures available show a Russian/Belarus population at 31% of the country's total. The Crimea/Eastern Ukraine crisis is causing concern in Riga. A conflict with Russia would involve NATO.

 
CB27
1062416.  Mon Mar 10, 2014 8:35 am Reply with quote

Let's not start all this again :)

 

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