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Is rape rape?

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Arcane
819097.  Wed May 25, 2011 8:39 am Reply with quote

So am I to read that 'yorz that the Netherlands does not really think that rape is rape unless there is violence involved with children? Do you have any backstory behind the reasoning for that via Dutch law and legal processes?

I find it hard to say that children, who obviously cannot give consent, aren't raped unless violence is used. Quite flummoxed and rather disturbed by that concept.

 
'yorz
819101.  Wed May 25, 2011 8:59 am Reply with quote

I just report what that petition says. Have to read up on newspaper articles. I wasn't familiar with the case.

 
Jenny
819105.  Wed May 25, 2011 9:15 am Reply with quote

As I'm reading the report, the Dutch are distinguishing between rape and sexual abuse of a minor, and classifying all forms of genital contact with a minor as sexual abuse. I am unhappy about what seems to me to be a grey area around 'violence' though. How do you ascertain what level of physical contact is 'violence'? Especially with children too young to talk. Physical injury?

 
Starfish13
819114.  Wed May 25, 2011 9:45 am Reply with quote

Arcane wrote:
The fact is, that if sex is forced on someone, against their will, no matter who, where, what was said, what was worn, if they say no, and it still happens by force, even if they knew that person, it is rape. The hard part is proving it and that is often the real crux of the issue.


I don't think anyone would argue with that.

Rape is also rape where consent to sexual intercourse is given under duress/coersion, either from the threat of force or violence against a person or their family/friends. In a situation like that, it is likely to be even more difficult to prove that rape took place.

I can see where Greer is coming from when she says rape is not distinct from other physical assaults, and whilst there may have been some truth in her view, on an individual basis, it doesn't stand up to the fact that rape is used as a weapon in war and acts of genocide.

In addition to being a crime against an individual, rape and sexual slavery can be a crime against humanity. I think that this is why it requires to have a special status in law.

 
PDR
819149.  Wed May 25, 2011 12:09 pm Reply with quote

Starfish13 wrote:
I can see where Greer is coming from when she says rape is not distinct from other physical assaults, and whilst there may have been some truth in her view, on an individual basis, it doesn't stand up to the fact that rape is used as a weapon in war and acts of genocide.


As are most other fo4rms of assualt and acts of violence, so surely that supports (rather than refutes) her view?

Quote:

In addition to being a crime against an individual, rape and sexual slavery can be a crime against humanity.


As can murder (genocide), enslavement etc. Again this seems to support the view that it's actually a member of the general class "assaults".

Quote:

I think that this is why it requires to have a special status in law.


Whereas the logical conclusionof the above points is that it doesn't!

PDR

 
dr.bob
819362.  Thu May 26, 2011 4:49 am Reply with quote

Jenny wrote:
As I'm reading the report, the Dutch are distinguishing between rape and sexual abuse of a minor, and classifying all forms of genital contact with a minor as sexual abuse.


Ignorant as I am about Dutch law, could someone explain to me the difference between rape and sexual abuse, particularly in terms of sentencing.

 
'yorz
819365.  Thu May 26, 2011 4:57 am Reply with quote

Sexual abuse : 8 years maximum - touching of someone's body against their will

Rape : 12 years maximum - penetration with penis, fingers, objects, and tongue

 
'yorz
819374.  Thu May 26, 2011 5:19 am Reply with quote

Just found the following, disturbing info:

In December last year, the Dutch equivalent of Crime Watch showed the picture of [I assume the face of] a young child that later proved to have been only 2 years old. This picture had surfaced during an US investigation after child porn had been found. As the origin of some pictures seemed to point to the Netherlands, Dutch authorities were alerted, and they decided to show this picture on 'Crime Watch'. Even during the broadcast, the boy was recognised, although not by his parents who were not watching that program. Friends of the family alerted them. A suspect was apprehended that same evening.


You just can't imagine.

 
dr.bob
819381.  Thu May 26, 2011 5:36 am Reply with quote

'yorz wrote:
Sexual abuse : 8 years maximum - touching of someone's body against their will

Rape : 12 years maximum - penetration with penis, fingers, objects, and tongue


Do you have a reference for those figures, 'yorz?

I only ask because a quick google search has left me confused. One of the earliest results I find is ageofconsent.com which says:

Quote:
II. Rape
Article 242 of the Penal Code
" A person who by an act of violence or another act or by threat of violence or threat of another act compels a person to submit to acts comprising or including sexual penetration of the body is guilty of rape and liable to a term of imprisonment of not more than twelve years or a fine of the fifth category. "

III. Other forms of child sex abuse
Article 244 of the Penal Code

" A person who, with a person who is under the age of twelve (12) performs acts comprising or including sexual penetration of the body is liable to a term of imprisonment of not more than twelve years or a fine of the fifth category. "


Which makes them sound pretty much the same. Though I note that that article is dated 2002 so it may be a bit out of date by now. Having said that, it is backed up by their quoted source (http://www.interpol.int/Public/Children/SexualAbuse/NationalLaws/) which quotes the same figures in a pdf which claims it contains information up to date as of spring 2006.

The other link google turned up was the US State Department which says:

Quote:
The penalty for rape is imprisonment not exceeding 15 years and/or a fine.


This is also dated 2006, though seems to contradict interpol. Also no mention of sexual abuse on that site.

So, all in all, I'm even more confused now.

 
'yorz
819390.  Thu May 26, 2011 6:19 am Reply with quote

I got it from the Dutch Childline

and excerpt of the Dutch Penal Code

 
dr.bob
819432.  Thu May 26, 2011 9:52 am Reply with quote

Forgive me, since my dutch is non existant, but doesn't your link to the Dutch Penal Code agree with that quote I've reproduced from ageofconsent.com: i.e. that both sexual assault of someone under the age of 12, and rape both carry the same maximum sentence of 12 years.

Or am I missing something?

 
orablu
819457.  Thu May 26, 2011 10:50 am Reply with quote

i think you're missing something. it says:
Quote:
Art. 246
Hij die door geweld of een andere feitelijkheid of bedreiging met geweld of een andere feitelijkheid iemand dwingt tot het plegen of dulden van ontuchtige handelingen, wordt, als schuldig aan feitelijke aanranding van de eerbaarheid, gestraft met gevangenisstraf van ten hoogste acht jaren of geldboete van de vijfde categorie.

which roughly translates as: "he who, through violence or any other 'factuality' (which apparently means "an act of violence", so prett much the same thing as violence) or threat of violence or any other factuality forces someone to commit or endure acts of a sexual nature, will be punished on account of violation, with a maximum of 8 years or a fine of the fifth category."

so that's assault.

Art. 242
Quote:
Hij die door geweld of een andere feitelijkheid of bedreiging met geweld of een andere feitelijkheid iemand dwingt tot het ondergaan van handelingen die bestaan uit of mede bestaan uit het seksueel binnendringen van het lichaam, wordt als schuldig aan verkrachting gestraft met gevangenisstraf van ten hoogste twaalf jaren of geldboete van de vijfde categorie.


this is for rape, and it says (i'm gonna summarize a bit):
when someone forces another person with violence to suffer undergo acts that (partially) include sexual penetration of the body, he will be charged on account of rape with a maximum of 12 years or a fine of the fifth category.

curiously, there's also a paragraph that says:
Quote:
Hij die met iemand van wie hij weet dat hij in staat van bewusteloosheid of lichamelijke onmacht verkeert, dan wel aan een zodanige gebrekkige ontwikkeling of ziekelijke stoornis van zijn geestvermogens lijdt dat hij niet of onvolkomen in staat is zijn wil daaromtrent te bepalen of kenbaar te maken of daartegen weerstand te bieden, handelingen pleegt die bestaan uit of mede bestaan uit het seksueel binnendringen van het lichaam, wordt gestraft met gevangenisstraf van ten hoogste acht jaren of geldboete van de vijfde categorie.

which means that, if you rape someone who is unconsious, physically incapable to refuse, or suffering from a mental illness which results in not being able to fully form or state their own will regarding sexual acts, or not being able to offer resistance, you risk maximum 8 years or a fine of the fifth category.

so if you're gonna rape someone in the netherlands, you'd be better off choosing someone who's unconscious or mentally handicapped.

(p.s.: i'm sorry if the translations are quite rough; i did it quickly, on the go.)

 
dr.bob
819460.  Thu May 26, 2011 10:54 am Reply with quote

And what about article 244? That is, after all, the pertinent bit that I quoted above that deals with sexual assault of a person under the age of 12.

 
orablu
819467.  Thu May 26, 2011 11:10 am Reply with quote

sorry, missed the "under twelve" bit you specified. i went looking for what 'yorz said.

that one's about rape (you know, with penetration). and it says 12 years (or a fine).
can't find anything about assault, but maybe i'm missing something.
it does say that if you commit a sexual offence with a minor that's your own child/ step child/ pupil/ child under your care, you'll get max. 6 years, or a fine of the fourth category.
(doesn't say anything about violence in that bit, though)


Quote:
Hij die ontucht pleegt met zijn minderjarig kind, stiefkind of pleegkind, zijn pupil, een aan zijn zorg, opleiding of waakzaamheid toevertrouwde minderjarige of zijn minderjarige bediende of ondergeschikte, wordt gestraft met gevangenisstraf van ten hoogste zes jaren of geldboete van de vierde categorie.

 
'yorz
819486.  Thu May 26, 2011 12:02 pm Reply with quote

Update on the Amsterdam childcare business: the defendent was born in Riga, Letland, and became a Dutch national in 2008. He has identified 53 children, boys as well as girls by name. The abuse had allegedly taken place at the day care centres as well as in private homes where he was babysitting (he had advertised his services on-line).
Apparently the man had been convicted for similar crimes when he was living in Germany where he served a 1 year sentence. The German police had failed to pass this on to their Dutch colleagues.

 

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