View previous topic | View next topic

Scum Villages

Page 1 of 2
Goto page 1, 2  Next

swot
954072.  Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:35 am Reply with quote

Apparently Amsterdam is to start placing families in Scum Villages if they persistently cause problems to their neighbours. The idea is that they will hate living in a shipping container on the edge of town and so will mend their ways once they return to their homes.

I can understand people wanting their nightmare neighbours to go away, rather than feeling like they have to move away themselves, but I really don't see how this solves the problem. The behaviour will be out of the nicer areas of town, but I doubt it will stop altogether. I'd have thought that placing people in little ghettos would make them feel more isolated and marginalised, and much less likely to want to co-operate with society. Surely a social inclusion policy (like a Sistmema, to give one tiny example) would be better.

I do have to plead ignorance on this, I've never been nor encountered a particularly unpleasant neighbour. I thought that some of the children on the street where I grew up were a little under-parented and the mother of one of the more horrible children was noisily arrested in the early hours of the morning a few months ago, but I'm not familiar with the problem. Can anyone offer any thoughts?

 
'yorz
954079.  Tue Dec 04, 2012 9:01 am Reply with quote

The idea is apparently based on that of Skaeve Huse, a Danish initiative.
Reading that article, it has a much more positive slant than the Scum Village variant, which phenomenon I was unaware of until now.
I will inquire.

 
Efros
954080.  Tue Dec 04, 2012 9:02 am Reply with quote

TBH I couldn't give a rat's arse where they put them just so long as it's not next door to me. I suffered an anti social neighbour for a couple of years, fortunately he fell foul of some of the local drug people and had to go away for an extended holiday. In those days (about 25 years ago) the help to be gotten from councils and police was pretty much nil, and you either put up with it or moved. I was lucky in that my hours kept me away from it for the worst parts of the day.

 
Traveller69
954087.  Tue Dec 04, 2012 9:13 am Reply with quote

This (or something like it) has already been implemented in another Dutch town (Tilburg, Roermond?). If memory serves correctly this went rather well, as there were a few extreme anti-social people and the majority finally understood what they themselves had been doing to their neighbours.

Furthermore wat Efros said. Why should 'good' citizens have to suffer because some people don't want to have consideration with their environment - while they want the environment to have consideration with them.

 
filofax
954090.  Tue Dec 04, 2012 9:21 am Reply with quote

I agree with Efros. Sure, in an ideal world nobody would approve of creating ghettos and isolating groups, but problem neighbours can really make your life hell.

A social inclusion programme sounds like a lovely idea, but depends to a great extent on people wanting to be included socially. In practical terms, if someone is antisocial enough to be considered a 'problem neighbour' I doubt that overnight they will start baking you muffins just because 'society' makes the fist move.

I know this is an extremely simplified statement in a complex issue, but I've seen what neighbours from hell can do to a community.

 
Dix
954094.  Tue Dec 04, 2012 9:44 am Reply with quote

'yorz wrote:
The idea is apparently based on that of Skaeve Huse, a Danish initiative.
Reading that article, it has a much more positive slant than the Scum Village variant, which phenomenon I was unaware of until now.
I will inquire.

Yorz, I did not know about that initiative and it turned out to be drowning in artist's projects of the same name when I googled it. Perhaps start here - you'll have to throw Google translate at it and hope it survives.
http://www.godsocialpraksis.dk/ShowExample.aspx?ExampleID=95
Apparently the gist of it is that the initiative is primarily aimed at homeless people with problems as e.g. mental health, alcohol or drugs use that makes it hard for them to fit in elsewhere. They are providing some support in the form of a caretaker / contact person / agony aunt.
So it's your local miserable sod that used to squat in a doorway somewhere rather than your neighbour from hell.

 
CB27
954103.  Tue Dec 04, 2012 10:16 am Reply with quote

The automatic response to the idea, as show by the Dutch model (and because of the name) fills one with the dread of ghettos and social exclusion, but as I understand it from readin a bit further, it's something akin to sheltered housing, with help being given to peopl to learn how to live in society rather than simply being left alone.

The one note of worry I have is that in times of austerity the funding could be cut back and these people left to themselves.

 
'yorz
954107.  Tue Dec 04, 2012 10:26 am Reply with quote

I just had an enlightening chat with a very liberal thinking Dutch friend. He'd never heard of Scum Villages, but thought it would find favour with lots of folk whose lives are blighted by (often Moroccan) youths.
This is a complaint I've heard more often over the years. Apparently, Moroccan children's behaviour is rarely corrected at home (dad says/does nothing and ma only speaks Arabic, while the children's first language is Dutch) so they often run wild and out of control. For instance, there have been occasions where gay couples have been forced to move elsewhere because homosexuality is intolerable for those youngsters.
The main groups of immigrants are from Morocco, Turkey, Suriname, and the Dutch Antilles. I never got a clear answer as to why it is the Moroccan culture in particular that has problems with integrating. Turks do sometimes have/cause problems, but to a much lesser extent.

The expression 'kut-Marokkaan' (fucking Moroccan) that sums up the problematic and often criminal behaviour of those youngters became mainstream in 2001 when during local elections an Amsterdam councilor used it during a private chat with the Mayor, unaware that there were open mics nearby. As a result the expression became so popular that it found its way into the renowned Van Dale dictionary.

<Ed> The idea of scum village was aired in 2011, and the general consensus was that it would be very difficult to implement.

 
Efros
954110.  Tue Dec 04, 2012 10:35 am Reply with quote

There are similar problems with teenage Muslim lads in Glasgow, has caused some very nasty incidents in the Pollockshields area of the city.

 
'yorz
954116.  Tue Dec 04, 2012 10:51 am Reply with quote

But - is there a certain nationality that causes most of the upheaval by Muslim youths? Because that is what puzzles me.

 
Efros
954117.  Tue Dec 04, 2012 10:55 am Reply with quote

Couldn't say, I know the area is predominantly Pakistani and Bangladeshi.

 
suze
954134.  Tue Dec 04, 2012 12:03 pm Reply with quote

'yorz wrote:
But - is there a certain nationality that causes most of the upheaval by Muslim youths? Because that is what puzzles me.


That's the sort of question that one has to be rather careful about asking, and to which neither the police nor the politicians will openly tell you the answer - even though they probably know what that answer is.

But as a very broad generalization, the two ethnic groups which commit the most crime and anti-social behaviour in any given city are the two largest ethnic groups in that city.

In all of Europe and most of North America, the largest ethnic group is white people who were born in the country in question. That ethnic group tends to dominate the local administration (the police, the politicians, and indeed the media), and so it's the second largest group which gets most of the blame.

So it's Pakistanis in East London and East Lancashire, it's African-Caribbeans in South London, it's Moroccans in Amsterdam, Turks in Berlin, Algerians in Marseille, Chinese in Vancouver, and so on.

And of course, most of the people in all of these groups are not criminals. But the small proportion that are give their communities a bad name and give ammunition to the Daily Mail and local equivalents.

 
bemahan
954136.  Tue Dec 04, 2012 12:15 pm Reply with quote

From my (limited) personal experience of the upbringing of Egyptian Muslim boys, they are pretty much given full rein to do what they like in terms of climbing, running around, being noisy. All the sorts of things that we, in the west, particularly uptight British (myself well and truly included) find pretty unacceptable outside of a kids' playground. The discipline is mainly around respect to your family, particularly the elder members and adults in authority, eg at school and mosque. They don't attach much value to material goods - what's mine is yours - and share clothes, toys etc so don't tend to have that 'you don't touch what isn't yours' attitude that we tend to have.
This seems to work in an Egyptian setting, but I'm not sure it works in the UK. In Egypt if you cheeked an elder, you would be taken up on it right from a young age by the elder in question (verbally - not necessarily physically and wouldn't dare do it again. Our teachers etc aren't allowed to be seriously sharp/severe even verbally.
So maybe Muslim boys grow up in this country with little respect for our authority figures. I can see how it happens, but who knows.
Because they are allowed so much freedom, it encourages 'segregation' as a lot of English parents might not invite such a child round to play after the first time as, even if the child was respectful, their behaviour would be seen as overly boisterous. And if the two cultures don't play together as children and in each other's homes, how are they ever going to learn and understand each other's social behaviour. It's not just about recognising and respecting religious festivals and rituals.

 
CB27
954174.  Tue Dec 04, 2012 4:04 pm Reply with quote

I personally think I tend to see it worse when you have a ghetto effect because people from various ethnicities/religions decide they want to live in an area that is predominantly of similar people, and it's almost like people outside that group are not tolerated.

It's been happening for a long time, you had Jewish and Irish gangs in London a century ago where they were concentrated, and now it's happening with other groups as well.

 
Awitt
954183.  Tue Dec 04, 2012 5:01 pm Reply with quote

Quote:
From my (limited) personal experience of the upbringing of Egyptian Muslim boys, they are pretty much given full rein to do what they like in terms of climbing, running around, being noisy. All the sorts of things that we, in the west, particularly uptight British (myself well and truly included) find pretty unacceptable outside of a kids' playground. The discipline is mainly around respect to your family, particularly the elder members and adults in authority, eg at school and mosque. They don't attach much value to material goods - what's mine is yours - and share clothes, toys etc so don't tend to have that 'you don't touch what isn't yours' attitude that we tend to have.


You've just described perfectly, the (although the minority Christian group of Coptics) in Egypt, whose specialist school I used to work at.
They (kids and families in general) didn't seem to understand the concept behind library loans, that the kid who'd borrowed the books had to return them or face a period of non borrowing, they lent them to cousins, etc, then couldn't get them back....

And the boys behaviour and attitudes were shocking at times, then the dads would rock up at the school office demanding to know why their son had a detention.

 

Page 1 of 2
Goto page 1, 2  Next

All times are GMT - 5 Hours


Display posts from previous:   

Search Search Forums

Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group