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orablu
773470.  Sat Jan 08, 2011 6:47 pm Reply with quote

Posital wrote:
If I remember correctly (which I don't), Ocean's 12 wasn't particularly memorable in the first place...

if it was, you'd remember.

the location of the last scene was quite astonishing, though.
that one image made up for the whole fiasco that they dared call a movie, for me.
i'm talking about this place, by the way:

 
melmouth
773577.  Sun Jan 09, 2011 8:48 am Reply with quote

I do, however, find Stephen Fry's behaviour, and therefore that of the privileged producers of Q.I., rather disingenuous in this specific matter.

As an Uppingham boy, consorting with Etonians, he will know full well that the boarding school elite are schooled in a rudimentary form of indirect hypnosis (and therefore embedded commands) from a relatively early age.

They may simply not know it as such.

 
RLDavies
773595.  Sun Jan 09, 2011 9:51 am Reply with quote

Fry was quick to wave aside "subliminal persuasion" with a reference to the notorious (and, as he said, faked) experiments with single-frame flashes saying DRINK COKE and EAT POPCORN. These didn't work, as mentioned.

But subliminal communication is a much more slippery creature. To bring the discussion once more to Derren Brown, if you've seen his show The Heist (which was repeated last night, in fact) then you've seen how perfectly normal, law-abiding, professional people can be turned temporarily into armed robbers. And even though Brown pooh-poohed "subliminals" in the very programme, everything he did was working on a subliminal level.

The most effective subliminals are those that enter the mind JUST under the threshold of conscious notice -- things you would readily see or hear (or smell, feel, etc.) if you were paying attention. Highly charged emotional content helps to raise this attention threshold because people selectively block out topics that they find disturbing.

Most subliminal content in advertising has nothing to do with embedded naughty words. People, being social primates, immediately and instinctively perceive subtleties relating to power and sexual status. I have a 1970s magazine ad for cigarettes that tells a whole story of adultery, entirely by its choice of the models' clothing and positioning.

 
Posital
773611.  Sun Jan 09, 2011 10:32 am Reply with quote

orablu wrote:
Posital wrote:
If I remember correctly (which I don't), Ocean's 12 wasn't particularly memorable in the first place...

if it was, you'd remember.
I can't discount that Derren could have been messin' wid me 'ed...

(I do live on Paul Daniels' territory which would make it unlikely - since wizards are all very territorial)

 
melmouth
773631.  Sun Jan 09, 2011 11:16 am Reply with quote

RLDavies wrote:

Most subliminal content in advertising has nothing to do with embedded naughty words. .


I didn't say they did, I was responding to the original question asked by Fry as to how to 'make' people elect him pope.

They do emphasise specific words in many adverts though and so, yes, they do technically use Erickson's interspersal technique.

As to other techniques used in advertising, there's a very naughty advert out there for one of those pro-biotic drinks (whatever pro-biotic is supposed to mean). They give you the pseudo-science as to what the drink does for your kebab-wrecked guts and then the bloke goes and picks out a pack of them off the supermarket shelf.

Now, as he's looking at this, in the corner of the screen and slightly out of focus, you see a young, attractive woman look approvingly at what he is doing. Technically it is not subliminal, as it is legally within conscious awareness. The fact remains that most men will be consciously unaware of the girl, but will subconsciously link drinking this product and being able to shag attractive, conscientious women (not like the nasty ones you've put up with so far) as a consequence.

 
Reckless Angel
773769.  Mon Jan 10, 2011 6:14 am Reply with quote

About two years ago a friend of mine went through an operation relating to her pacemaker with only hypnosis to keep her 'under'.

made the papers here in sweden:
http://www.aftonbladet.se/kropphalsa/article5025586.ab

might want to use google translate or some such, as it is in swedish.

 
RLDavies
773794.  Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:49 am Reply with quote

melmouth wrote:
RLDavies wrote:
Most subliminal content in advertising has nothing to do with embedded naughty words. .

I didn't say they did, I was responding to the original question asked by Fry as to how to 'make' people elect him pope.

Yep, my comment was aimed at the more general idea of "subliminal advertising" meaning "hidden taboo words embedded in the pictures". Which exists, but isn't the whole story by a long way.

(My posting was heavily rewritten and re-edited, so maybe I hacked too much off that paragraph. Sorry if it was misleading.)

melmouth wrote:
As to other techniques used in advertising, there's a very naughty advert out there for one of those pro-biotic drinks (whatever pro-biotic is supposed to mean). They give you the pseudo-science as to what the drink does for your kebab-wrecked guts and then the bloke goes and picks out a pack of them off the supermarket shelf.

Now, as he's looking at this, in the corner of the screen and slightly out of focus, you see a young, attractive woman look approvingly at what he is doing. Technically it is not subliminal, as it is legally within conscious awareness. The fact remains that most men will be consciously unaware of the girl, but will subconsciously link drinking this product and being able to shag attractive, conscientious women (not like the nasty ones you've put up with so far) as a consequence.

Exactly what I was saying. For the purpose of manipulation, "subliminal" is better understood as not consciously noticed rather than utterly below any sensory threshold. Hardly anybody watching the ad will ever be aware of the woman, but they'll all see her and subconciously register her approval.

 
Jenny
773847.  Mon Jan 10, 2011 10:06 am Reply with quote

Welcome Reckless Angel - I don't read Swedish but the gist of that article is clear enough.

 
aTao
773916.  Mon Jan 10, 2011 12:29 pm Reply with quote

Does anyone remember the dead hamster advert? The ad was a tale of a hamster that liked playing in his wheel which broke, the hamster got upset and died. The advert was withdrawn due to complaints but most people could not remember what product was being advertised. If I remember correctly there was Levis written in small white letters in the top right of the screen.

Tricky to say if it worked or not, and if the ad agency cannot prove reesults then they arent likely to get paid for it.

 
Bondee
773969.  Mon Jan 10, 2011 4:06 pm Reply with quote

aTao wrote:
Does anyone remember the dead hamster advert? The ad was a tale of a hamster that liked playing in his wheel which broke, the hamster got upset and died. The advert was withdrawn due to complaints but most people could not remember what product was being advertised. If I remember correctly there was Levis written in small white letters in the top right of the screen.


This one?

Seems like a similar sort of advert to the Cadbury's drumming gorilla to me. The contents of the advert don't really matter, as long as it gets people talking about it, because they'll probably mention the product it was advertising when they talk about it.
(did that make sense?)

 
Reckless Angel
774010.  Mon Jan 10, 2011 6:12 pm Reply with quote

Jenny wrote:
Welcome Reckless Angel - I don't read Swedish but the gist of that article is clear enough.


Thank yee kindly. =^_^=

... and yeah, I tried finding some more international source for that piece of news... but she was only ever interviewed by Swedish media. *shrugs*

 
RLDavies
774136.  Tue Jan 11, 2011 7:10 am Reply with quote

aTao wrote:
Tricky to say if it worked or not, and if the ad agency cannot prove reesults then they arent likely to get paid for it.

It's nearly impossible to prove results. "I know that half the money I pay for advertising is wasted, but I don't know which half."

The ad agency will be paid anyway. The contract is to produce an ad (or ad campaign) according to the brief, never to produce an ad that generates X amount of sales. Of course, the better the ads seem to work, the more likely the same agency will be hired for the next campaign.

 
Ion Zone
774390.  Tue Jan 11, 2011 7:33 pm Reply with quote

Davis is correct, I have been told by an ex-cometial advertisment photographer who worked for large companies (such as Rizla and Gordon's) that the situation is that they just throw money and hope. Advertisers work in much the same way and are highly cynical.

 
melmouth
774671.  Wed Jan 12, 2011 11:58 am Reply with quote

Returning to the original concept of rigging an election by influencing people subconsciously: there is a fascinating documentary by Adam Curtis called 'Century of the Self', where he explores the growth of Public Relations (peacetime propaganda) at the hands of Edward Bernays - using, and misusing, the principles of his uncle's (Sigismund Freud) work.

There is a backlash against Freud, led by psychoanalysts like Carl Jung and Wilhelm Reich, which ultimately creates the Esalen Institute of Fritz Perls & Michael Murphy.

To cut a long story short, the work done at this institute had the original aim of allowing individuals to express their true inner selves, stripped of all social conditioning, in order to become truly autonomous personalities.

Of course, these principles were hijacked and reverse engineered: you can manipulate the behaviour of the individual if you talk directly to their 'inner selves'.

The documentary goes on to detail how the advertising campaigns of Thatcher in '79 and Reagan in '80 reached out to one specific psychological demographic in society - the 'Inner Directeds' - Inner Directed: guided in thought and behaviour by one's own set of values rather than societal standards or norms.

The respective campaigns said that big government didn't work and that they needed to simply hand power over to the kind of people who could make things happen.

When the election results and the psychological test results came back, they found that Inner Directeds voted in significantly high numbers to swing the elections - irrespective of their historical, avowed political allegiance.

 
ewelch29
776361.  Mon Jan 17, 2011 12:04 am Reply with quote

Something that Steven said made no sense. Although the brain does control pain to some extant it is primarily controlled by the Ganglia in the spine. We would be horribly damaged if the brain controlled everything for example, it can take up to one second for a message to go from the brain to the feet (if we were hurt that would be 2+ seconds before your foot got the message OW! - one second to travel up to the brain, less than a second for the brain to decode the message and figure out what it means, and one second for the message to return to the feet). That is why the spinal cord takes care of the pain stuff. I believe what he said about hypnosis calming people so that painful procedures can be performed but the whole "brain controlling pain" is NOT TRUE for the start of pain (although the brain will tell your body after it gets the message of pain - which is after you begin to fell it - that you are not in pain so you stop feeling it).

Epidurals are a good example of this. They block the receptors in the spine effectively dulling any pain below where the epidural was placed. If it blocked the messages to the brain than your entire body would go numb. It's the same principle with some forms of paralysis it's not the messages to the brain that are cut off but the messages to the spinal cord.

 

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