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Hypnosis

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melmouth
773232.  Fri Jan 07, 2011 4:39 pm Reply with quote

In response to the 'Can you think of a way I could get you to vote for me to be pope' question: yes, subliminal advertising is pretty dicey, but in the realms of indirect (conversational) hypnosis, as developed by Milton Erickson, there is something called the interspersal technique, or embedded suggestions. You basically implant 'suggestions' (or rather commands) within ostensibly innocuous conversation and tell the subconscious to do something.

It would go something like:
'Far be it from me to tell you to vote for me as pope, I can't really tell you to do it if you don't really want to do that....

The commands are subtly separated out from the rest of the communication - usually with a different vocal tone.

Now that's within conversation. You can actually do something similar in text form, which would sort of bring us round to saying that actually, technically, the reader or viewer can be affected 'subliminally'.

I'm currently perfecting the embedded command induction, whereby you tell someone to go into trance! It is beautifully complex!

P.S. Quite Interesting - the speech given by Tony Blair after the death of Princess Diana was a very carefully written command to the collective unconscious of the drooling, baying mob to go home and calm down!

 
Posital
773275.  Fri Jan 07, 2011 6:19 pm Reply with quote

From what I understand, milton was an inspiration to the creators of nlp. Both McKenna and Derren Brown use similar techniques.

I think these things only tend to work when the subject is indifferent to the matter at hand - or can influence them by degrees while their guard is down.

 
melmouth
773300.  Fri Jan 07, 2011 7:40 pm Reply with quote

No. If the person doesn't know you're employing embedded commands - and why would they unless you foolishly told them; they would believe the ideas were their own. You're talking directly to the subconscious, remember. The idea isn't even perceived to be an external one so it isn't resisted.

Perversely, with highly intelligent, highly analytical subjects, telling them you are using this technique can work in your favour, as they highlight and reinforce the suggestions themselves. Obviously in this instance, the whole episode takes place in a therapeutic setting and the subject is fully compliant in relaxing into trance.

Most of what Derren Brown does involves hypnosis. Much of the so-called N.L.P. he uses is a meaningless smokescreen to divert you away from the fact that he has pre-hypnotised the subject at an earlier meeting (using, you guessed it, conversational hypnosis with a 'suggestion' for amnesia). This state is anchored, usually (with Brown) to a touch on the shoulder - the subject then enters the previously induced trance state.

 
Posital
773323.  Sat Jan 08, 2011 1:35 am Reply with quote

melmouth wrote:
the fact that he has pre-hypnotised the subject at an earlier meeting
I'd be interested in any evidence on this - as I'd have thought even a sniff of this would badly damage his reputation.

Less hypnosis - more like magic tricks.

 
melmouth
773428.  Sat Jan 08, 2011 12:56 pm Reply with quote

Derren Brown doesn't just use hypnosis, but it features heavily in what he does. Much of his efforts are spent on misdirection - making you look over there for answers, when you should be looking over here: that's the psychological link with magic and sleight of hand.

As to your article, Brown's 'card tricks' owe a lot to the work of the mentalist David Berglas, who developed a system of 'card forcing' ,whereby he could make anyone pick a specific card of any suit or number. The book in which Berglas detailed this was a limited edition and is very expensive on e-bay.

Now drifting back to the subject of 'subliminal messaging', Brown himself provides a fascinating example of how, despite what Stephen Fry may reassuringly wave away, people can be dramatically influenced at a subconscious level - i.e. at a subliminal level (subliminal stimuli - sensory stimuli below an individual's absolute threshold for conscious perception).

In one of his 'tricks' he prepares a short film resembling an advertisement that is played to a cinema audience before they watch a film (Ocean's 12, I think).

This short film has one function - to make the audience forget the film they are about to watch.

When Derren Brown randomly interviews the exiting audience members, they are unable to remember any detail of the film they have just watched.

So Brown either:

A, Prepared a genuine film that acted on a subliminal level to make them forget the following feature film

OR

B, Influenced their memory as they left the cinema.

In either case he affected their perception and memory at a subconscious and therefore subliminal level.

 
Posital
773469.  Sat Jan 08, 2011 6:31 pm Reply with quote

If I remember correctly (which I don't), Ocean's 12 wasn't particularly memorable in the first place...

 
orablu
773470.  Sat Jan 08, 2011 6:47 pm Reply with quote

Posital wrote:
If I remember correctly (which I don't), Ocean's 12 wasn't particularly memorable in the first place...

if it was, you'd remember.

the location of the last scene was quite astonishing, though.
that one image made up for the whole fiasco that they dared call a movie, for me.
i'm talking about this place, by the way:

 
melmouth
773577.  Sun Jan 09, 2011 8:48 am Reply with quote

I do, however, find Stephen Fry's behaviour, and therefore that of the privileged producers of Q.I., rather disingenuous in this specific matter.

As an Uppingham boy, consorting with Etonians, he will know full well that the boarding school elite are schooled in a rudimentary form of indirect hypnosis (and therefore embedded commands) from a relatively early age.

They may simply not know it as such.

 
RLDavies
773595.  Sun Jan 09, 2011 9:51 am Reply with quote

Fry was quick to wave aside "subliminal persuasion" with a reference to the notorious (and, as he said, faked) experiments with single-frame flashes saying DRINK COKE and EAT POPCORN. These didn't work, as mentioned.

But subliminal communication is a much more slippery creature. To bring the discussion once more to Derren Brown, if you've seen his show The Heist (which was repeated last night, in fact) then you've seen how perfectly normal, law-abiding, professional people can be turned temporarily into armed robbers. And even though Brown pooh-poohed "subliminals" in the very programme, everything he did was working on a subliminal level.

The most effective subliminals are those that enter the mind JUST under the threshold of conscious notice -- things you would readily see or hear (or smell, feel, etc.) if you were paying attention. Highly charged emotional content helps to raise this attention threshold because people selectively block out topics that they find disturbing.

Most subliminal content in advertising has nothing to do with embedded naughty words. People, being social primates, immediately and instinctively perceive subtleties relating to power and sexual status. I have a 1970s magazine ad for cigarettes that tells a whole story of adultery, entirely by its choice of the models' clothing and positioning.

 
Posital
773611.  Sun Jan 09, 2011 10:32 am Reply with quote

orablu wrote:
Posital wrote:
If I remember correctly (which I don't), Ocean's 12 wasn't particularly memorable in the first place...

if it was, you'd remember.
I can't discount that Derren could have been messin' wid me 'ed...

(I do live on Paul Daniels' territory which would make it unlikely - since wizards are all very territorial)

 
melmouth
773631.  Sun Jan 09, 2011 11:16 am Reply with quote

RLDavies wrote:

Most subliminal content in advertising has nothing to do with embedded naughty words. .


I didn't say they did, I was responding to the original question asked by Fry as to how to 'make' people elect him pope.

They do emphasise specific words in many adverts though and so, yes, they do technically use Erickson's interspersal technique.

As to other techniques used in advertising, there's a very naughty advert out there for one of those pro-biotic drinks (whatever pro-biotic is supposed to mean). They give you the pseudo-science as to what the drink does for your kebab-wrecked guts and then the bloke goes and picks out a pack of them off the supermarket shelf.

Now, as he's looking at this, in the corner of the screen and slightly out of focus, you see a young, attractive woman look approvingly at what he is doing. Technically it is not subliminal, as it is legally within conscious awareness. The fact remains that most men will be consciously unaware of the girl, but will subconsciously link drinking this product and being able to shag attractive, conscientious women (not like the nasty ones you've put up with so far) as a consequence.

 
Reckless Angel
773769.  Mon Jan 10, 2011 6:14 am Reply with quote

About two years ago a friend of mine went through an operation relating to her pacemaker with only hypnosis to keep her 'under'.

made the papers here in sweden:
http://www.aftonbladet.se/kropphalsa/article5025586.ab

might want to use google translate or some such, as it is in swedish.

 
RLDavies
773794.  Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:49 am Reply with quote

melmouth wrote:
RLDavies wrote:
Most subliminal content in advertising has nothing to do with embedded naughty words. .

I didn't say they did, I was responding to the original question asked by Fry as to how to 'make' people elect him pope.

Yep, my comment was aimed at the more general idea of "subliminal advertising" meaning "hidden taboo words embedded in the pictures". Which exists, but isn't the whole story by a long way.

(My posting was heavily rewritten and re-edited, so maybe I hacked too much off that paragraph. Sorry if it was misleading.)

melmouth wrote:
As to other techniques used in advertising, there's a very naughty advert out there for one of those pro-biotic drinks (whatever pro-biotic is supposed to mean). They give you the pseudo-science as to what the drink does for your kebab-wrecked guts and then the bloke goes and picks out a pack of them off the supermarket shelf.

Now, as he's looking at this, in the corner of the screen and slightly out of focus, you see a young, attractive woman look approvingly at what he is doing. Technically it is not subliminal, as it is legally within conscious awareness. The fact remains that most men will be consciously unaware of the girl, but will subconsciously link drinking this product and being able to shag attractive, conscientious women (not like the nasty ones you've put up with so far) as a consequence.

Exactly what I was saying. For the purpose of manipulation, "subliminal" is better understood as not consciously noticed rather than utterly below any sensory threshold. Hardly anybody watching the ad will ever be aware of the woman, but they'll all see her and subconciously register her approval.

 
Jenny
773847.  Mon Jan 10, 2011 10:06 am Reply with quote

Welcome Reckless Angel - I don't read Swedish but the gist of that article is clear enough.

 
aTao
773916.  Mon Jan 10, 2011 12:29 pm Reply with quote

Does anyone remember the dead hamster advert? The ad was a tale of a hamster that liked playing in his wheel which broke, the hamster got upset and died. The advert was withdrawn due to complaints but most people could not remember what product was being advertised. If I remember correctly there was Levis written in small white letters in the top right of the screen.

Tricky to say if it worked or not, and if the ad agency cannot prove reesults then they arent likely to get paid for it.

 

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