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How many kings of England were crowned King Henry?

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CB27
742249.  Sat Sep 11, 2010 12:15 pm Reply with quote

Klaxon for anyone who says 8, there were in fact 9 kings who were crowned as King Henry.

While history records that the last King to be crowned King Henry held the title of Henry VIII, it cannot completely ignore the fact that there was another King Henry was was crowned, twice, in 1170 and 1172.

The Henry in question was the second son of Henry II, and after the death of his elder brother he was heir to the throne. In 1170 he was crowned and given the seal "HENRICVS REX ANGLORUM ET DUX NORMANNORUM ET COMES ANDEGAVORUM" and became King Henry of England, alongside his dad, though without realms or power.

He had a second coronation in 1172 because his wife, the daughter of the French King Louis VII, was not in the first one and King Louis was a bit miffed.

Lack of real power, and probable influence from his mother, led Henry the younger to side with his brothers against his father in the short civil war that followed, but after this rebellion was quashed he spent some time competing in jousting tournaments before turning his attentions on his brother Richard (later to become Richard I). During the war with Richard, Henry contracted dissentry and died a few days later.

When he heard his son was dead, Henry II said "He cost me much, but I wish he had lived to cost me more."

 
elena181
742346.  Sun Sep 12, 2010 12:53 am Reply with quote

Quote:
How many kings of England were crowned King Henry? Klaxon for anyone who says 8, there were in fact 9 kings who were crowned as King Henry.



Wouldn't this mean that there were still 8, as you ask how many kings were crowned King Henry? I think it is to do with your wording of the question. How many Kings to be crowned King Henry, were still 8 physical Kings, but 9 coronations where someone was crowned King Henry.

I may just be wrong though.

 
zomgmouse
742347.  Sun Sep 12, 2010 1:44 am Reply with quote

It seems that way to me, too.
Maybe something like, "How many times did we have a King Henry?"

 
elena181
742349.  Sun Sep 12, 2010 1:48 am Reply with quote

I think that might be the same again! As it is the same amount of times we would have a King Henry! It is really complicated to phrase, without giving the game away. I think the key would be to have the question reference how many coronations. Or, In the whole history of England, how many times did we crown a King Henry? I think that is still flawed! But something to do with crowning or the coronation may be the key, as King is a difficult one.

 
Celebaelin
742350.  Sun Sep 12, 2010 1:53 am Reply with quote

Or 'How many coronations of King Henry have there been in England?' To which question the answer is 10 apparently.

 
Sadurian Mike
742427.  Sun Sep 12, 2010 6:25 am Reply with quote

Being a king is more than just being crowned, of course. The "rules" have been altered and sidestepped quite a lot in our history.

 
CB27
742480.  Sun Sep 12, 2010 9:32 am Reply with quote

I think some of you may have missed something here, there weren't nine coronations and 8 kings, there were in fact 10 coronations and 8 kings (unless any others had more coronations as well).

Henry was given the title of King of England, was crowned as such, and known by people of the time as King.

That subsequent history decided to ignore him when listing the kings and queens of England doesn't deny the fact that he held that title and was accepted as such in his time.

 
Sadurian Mike
742503.  Sun Sep 12, 2010 10:46 am Reply with quote

Where do you stop though? Lady Jane Grey? Louis? Monmouth? Lambert Simnal?

 
tetsabb
742514.  Sun Sep 12, 2010 11:27 am Reply with quote

Sadurian Mike wrote:
Lambert Simnel?


Not to be confused with Perkin Warbeck, of course.
(1066 and All That)

 
Zebra57
742971.  Mon Sep 13, 2010 7:45 pm Reply with quote

Henry VI was crowned King of England as a young boy and then crowned King of France in Paris.


How many kings of England were crowned King Henry?

The answer could be eight, nine, ten or even eleven

 
CB27
742983.  Mon Sep 13, 2010 7:59 pm Reply with quote

That's the point, it can't be eight.

The fact remains that King Henry was properly crowned and recognised as King of England, so he would make it 9, you could include Henry VI's French coronation to make it 10, thought it's a disputed coronation and not recognised by many.

This is not about how many people claimed to be king, how many tried to seize the throne, etc, this question was about how many were crowed as King Henry of England and widely recognised and acknowledged as such in their lifetime.

 
Sadurian Mike
743095.  Tue Sep 14, 2010 5:48 am Reply with quote

How many people need to acknowledge a person as king before it becomes "official"?

The majority of England did not want or acknowledge William the Bastard, but it just so happened to be the important ones who were coerced into doing so.

Neither were all acknowledged kings crowned, and some were crowned who are no longer identified as king.

Trying to define who was and wasn't king by identifying crownings and "popular acknowledgement" doesn't work.

 
Celebaelin
743102.  Tue Sep 14, 2010 6:06 am Reply with quote

Best left to posterity I guess.

If I went around saying I was an Emperor just because some moistened tart lobbed a scimitar at me...

 
CB27
743122.  Tue Sep 14, 2010 6:55 am Reply with quote

Well, I just checked, and each and every King Henry, from I to VIII were crowned in Westminster Abbey, including Young King Henry, who was called Henry III during his lifetime.

It was in fact his coronation which caused Thomas Beckett to ex-communicate those involved, leading Henry II to utter the famous words which led to Becketts death a short time later.

 
Sadurian Mike
743156.  Tue Sep 14, 2010 9:47 am Reply with quote

Sure, but I think you're missing the point. If we insert an extra "king" Henry we may have to start thinking about inserting King Louis, James III (Monmouth), Queen Jane and so on.

Whatever political manoeuverings went on historically, the line of monarchs as we currently recognise them is the only sensible way to recognise our past rulers.

Henry the Young King was a co-ruler with Henry II but never ruled in his own right. I would suggest that, despite being called and crowned a king, Henry was actually no more than a Royal Prince. It depends on how you define what a king is, but if we are starting down the path of joint rulership, crownings and declarations of "I'm king" then surely all those "pretenders" who declared themselves king and were (or even were not) crowned should also feature on the list. Lady Jane Grey was nominated monarch by the current ruler (Edward) and yet is not usually considered to have been a "real" queen.

The Duke of Monmouth is another classic example. He had as good a right to the throne as some previous monarchs (and a better one than many), was supported by a sizeable Protestant following including more than a few of the contemporary movers and shakers, was crowned (three times as it happens), yet is not recognised as a legitimate king by history.

 

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