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crissdee
1386609.  Tue Aug 03, 2021 3:41 am Reply with quote

Yes, if someone gave a female driver a competitive car, they have as much chance of seeing the chequered flag as that bloke from Stevenage.

 
barbados
1386615.  Tue Aug 03, 2021 4:44 am Reply with quote

crissdee wrote:
Yes, if someone gave a female driver a competitive car, they have as much chance of seeing the chequered flag as that bloke from Stevenage.

It is probably more the other way round, if you put the bloke from Stevenage in an uncompetitive car he would have as much chance of seeing the chequered flag as the “female driver”.
The thing that Hamilton has - similar to other “good” drivers is the ability to tell the technicians behind the scenes what is needed to make the uncompetitive car competitive - and that isn’t gender linked in any way, it is experience of driving competitive cars.

 
Celebaelin
1386618.  Tue Aug 03, 2021 5:32 am Reply with quote

This direction seems like fertile ground for sexist generalisations but perhaps I'll venture a suggestion after prefacing the comments that follow with the following caveats: firstly this is about populations and probability distribution and this is relevant because of the broad pool from which any prospective candidates are chosen and secondly there is quite a lot of evidence to support the suggestion

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/147470490800600104
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0963721411429452
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0167268111001521

that men take more risks although this does depend on what you classify as a risk

Quote:
What if instead of just asking about poker and bungee jumping, researchers added questions about risks that women more typically take, Morgenroth wondered. When she went ahead and added these sorts of risks to the scale -- things like cooking an impressive but difficult dish for an important dinner party or buying a ticket from a less reliable airline -- lo and behold women suddenly seemed just as comfortable with risk as men.

https://www.inc.com/jessica-stillman/science-oops-we-actually-totally-underestimated-womens-appetite-for-risk.html

Presumably we all accept that peril to life and limb goes hand in hand with maneuvering machinery at high speed under competitive conditions and it is the willingness to take these particular kinds of risk (irrespective of the good sense of it) that will allow those whose instincts and abilities allow them to survive relatively unscathed to produce faster times in any given motorsport. Darwinian theory also predicts certain consequences when success in these activities is highly valued but let's not get into that - let's just say it's a niche interest.

If I were to say women are safer drivers I doubt this would be contested (indeed insurance companies depend on actuarial data that confirms this) but that is just the same point looked at from a different perspective.

Quote:
Compared with women, male drivers of cars and vans were involved in twice as many fatal accidents.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/27/well/live/car-accidents-deaths-men-women.html

The whole point of the sports concerned is to push the limits of what the machine and its occupant are capable of doing in terms of achieving ever greater speeds over a given course and this tends towards at least the boundaries of what is safe and often crosses over into the downright dangerous.

Without knowing anything about it in advance I propose that we examine competitive motorcycle racing. Let's find out out what we can about fastest lap times (women, being usually smaller of frame and therefore lighter, should have an advantage)...

Isle of Man TT circuit records
Male: Peter Hickman 135.452mph
Female: Jenny Tinmouth 119.945mph

Quote:
Jenny is also the first and only female competing in the British Superbike Championship. For which she was also awarded a Guinness World Record.

https://www.johnsmotorcyclenews.co.uk/news-interest/jenny-tinmouth-is-the-current-female-isle-of-man-tt-lap-record-holder/

There doesn't appear to be any easy or convenient web source for these statistics but I read that the women do compete directly against the men in this sport and that placing about 10th is an achievement.

The aforementioned Jenny Tinmouth has had some successes in the British Supersport Cup including a third place in an individual race and a third place overall but generally the titles and records are held by males.

 
RLDavies
1386623.  Tue Aug 03, 2021 6:57 am Reply with quote

Testosterone drives competitiveness. Both men and women have testosterone, and everybody likes to win if they can. But when you get into the zone where competition starts shading into studied recklessness, I'm willing to speculate that high levels of testosterone are needed to make anybody think it's worthwhile.

 
Efros
1386624.  Tue Aug 03, 2021 7:34 am Reply with quote

F1 drivers also seem to maintain a ridiculously high heart rate throughout the race, averaging about 150 and peaking in the 170-180 range.

https://youtu.be/NiMIOXRUN9w?t=36

 
suze
1386625.  Tue Aug 03, 2021 7:42 am Reply with quote

Celebaelin wrote:
Presumably we all accept that peril to life and limb goes hand in hand with maneuvering machinery at high speed under competitive conditions and it is the willingness to take these particular kinds of risk (irrespective of the good sense of it) that will allow those whose instincts and abilities allow them to survive relatively unscathed to produce faster times in any given motorsport.


This seems entirely reasonable.

Formula 1 motor racing is a dangerous sport. Some proportion of those who take part in it lose their limbs and/or lives as a result. Those who know the actual numbers keep them close to their chests, but Lewis Hamilton's life assurance premium is undoubtedly rather more than is the life assurance premium for a 36 year old man from Stevenage who works in an office at GlaxoSmithKline plc. (I choose that firm because it is Stevenage's largest employer.)

But, it's not as dangerous as it used to be. Back in the 70s, it was almost routine that a report on a Grand Prix would mention the driver who was dead. By now, this is fortunately a much rarer occurrence.

So if women do indeed avoid the sport because of the inherent danger, you might imagine that women would be more willing to take part now than formerly. In fact, it is not so. No woman has even attempted to qualify for an F1 Grand Prix since 1992, and none has actually started a race since 1976.

This leads one to one of three conclusions, two of which are unbecoming. The most benign conclusion is that the number of woman drivers has been so small that it's just random that they were all a fair while ago. That might work for the mathematicians, but doesn't really seem especially likely.

If it's not that, though, are we forced to conclude that the small number of women who took part in F1 half a century ago were publicity stunts? Or is it worse than that? "Well Madam Lady Racing Driver, these here are our mechanics. A service for a service, your call."

 
Efros
1386627.  Tue Aug 03, 2021 8:23 am Reply with quote

1950s - 15 fatalities
1960s - 13 fatalities
1970s - 12 fatalities
1980s - 4 fatalities
1990s - 2 fatalities
2000s - 2 fatalities
2010s - 3 fatalities

Major change 70s-80s, really not much since then. PDR probably knows if there was major changes in the car design regs at that point but that's what I would suspect.

 
ali
1386628.  Tue Aug 03, 2021 8:27 am Reply with quote

Efros wrote:
1950s - 15 fatalities
1960s - 13 fatalities
1970s - 12 fatalities
1980s - 4 fatalities
1990s - 2 fatalities
2000s - 2 fatalities
2010s - 3 fatalities

Major change 70s-80s, really not much since then. PDR probably knows if there was major changes in the car design regs at that point but that's what I would suspect.


Not necessarily (though I don't actually know). In 1975 a requirement that driver overalls adhere to a fire safety standard was introduced, which presumably had some effect.

 
cnb
1386629.  Tue Aug 03, 2021 8:37 am Reply with quote

Efros wrote:
1950s - 15 fatalities
1960s - 13 fatalities
1970s - 12 fatalities
1980s - 4 fatalities
1990s - 2 fatalities
2000s - 2 fatalities
2010s - 3 fatalities

Major change 70s-80s, really not much since then. PDR probably knows if there was major changes in the car design regs at that point but that's what I would suspect.


You also need to take into account that there were fewer races per season in the past. In the 60s there were about 10 races per year. This year there are 23.

 
Celebaelin
1386683.  Tue Aug 03, 2021 5:04 pm Reply with quote

suze wrote:
Celebaelin wrote:
Presumably we all accept that peril to life and limb goes hand in hand with maneuvering machinery at high speed under competitive conditions and it is the willingness to take these particular kinds of risk (irrespective of the good sense of it) that will allow those whose instincts and abilities allow them to survive relatively unscathed to produce faster times in any given motorsport.

This seems entirely reasonable.

Apart from the sentence being incomplete I guess that's so - I won't edit it but I think it needs something like '...that predisposes a given sport towards the success of male participants' before the full stop.

RLDavies wrote:
Testosterone drives competitiveness.

Is this certain, or even realistically suggested, in truth ? There is a general chicken and egg proposition although the effect might well (from a personal understanding) be more easily observed in males than females.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/308993170_Effects_of_competition_outcome_on_testosterone_concentrations_in_humans_An_updated_meta-analysis

RLDavies wrote:
Both men and women have testosterone, and everybody likes to win if they can. But when you get into the zone where competition starts shading into studied recklessness, I'm willing to speculate that high levels of testosterone are needed to make anybody think it's worthwhile.

That seems to me to be likely but I'd shy away from a solid proposition to that effect given the consideration that your supposition is, as you pointed out, speculative. I'd also go so far as to say higher and relatively continually elevated levels of testosterone defy thought and 'speak' directly to reproductively driven impulses to demonstrate superior ability in any or, if possible, every given regard*.

As do the corresponding inherent female responses to equivalent stress stimuli of course (IMO & AFAIUI).

*this is not exclusively a male characteristic IMO but the nature and area of competition might not coincide in what I'll elect to call a 'gender separated' competitive circumstance.

 
AlmondFacialBar
1390204.  Sat Sep 18, 2021 5:07 am Reply with quote

Tara Westover - Educated

Meant to do so since it came out and thought I knew what was expecting me, but... whoa! On the one hand I can't put it down because it's an absolutely riveting read, on the other hand I have to put it down every couple of pages because every nightmare scenario she's lived through is worse than the last. I can't wait for her making it into uni, far away from all that.

:-)

AlmondFacialBar

 
Awitt
1390215.  Sat Sep 18, 2021 5:46 am Reply with quote

I've just seen a review of it by someone in my FB 'serious non fiction books' and I want to read it too, but it's not high on my list at present.

 
RLDavies
1390221.  Sat Sep 18, 2021 7:55 am Reply with quote

I haven't felt well enough for the past few days to do any concentrated reading!

Poking around in search of something more leaf-through-able, I found a massive coffee-table-type book about the history and culture of the Celtic peoples all across Europe. I can't remember buying it, and I know I've never read it, but there it is. Gorgeous photos of artifacts. But I don't particularly want it, so it can be another one for the eBay pile.

 
Jenny
1390228.  Sat Sep 18, 2021 9:36 am Reply with quote

Thanks AFB - sounds good. I've just ordered a second hand copy.

 
extremophilesheep
1390272.  Sun Sep 19, 2021 5:12 am Reply with quote

DAMA-DMBOK. I really wish I was reading something else.

 

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