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Poland, 1939

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Sadurian Mike
703123.  Wed Apr 28, 2010 3:25 pm Reply with quote

True, although they are used in deserts so I imagine they can go a fair old distance before needing topping up again.

I should note at this stage that I am a numpty when it comes to horses.

 
brunel
703144.  Wed Apr 28, 2010 3:44 pm Reply with quote

'yorz wrote:
Sadurian Mike wrote:
Horses require a bag of oats (although grass will suffice for a while) and a rub down, with occasional checks on hoofs.


And water, dear Henry , dear Henry. You'll have to lug gallons of it with you. You never know whether there's drinkable water where you're going.


That said, it would be no different to the requirement to take fuel with a motorized vehicle in order to keep that going.
After all, to return to WWII, there were quite a few instances where each side saw their armour being rendered useless when fuel shortages prevented them from being able to use them in the field.

Although there might be cases where drinking water would not be easily available, I would hazard a guess that in many environments, water would probably be more easily procurable then fuel.

 
Brickie
846367.  Wed Sep 14, 2011 4:10 am Reply with quote

Sadurian Mike wrote:
Another myth.

The Poles were helpless against the German tanks and fell back before them.

It is true that the German "Blitzkrieg" tactics made the Polish defensive strategy of holding a long border unwise in hindsight, but when the Poles were able to organise their defences they took a heavy toll of the attacking armour.



Indeed - though the Poles were in a bit of a cleft stick, because in retreating to a more defensible line along the rivers, they would have abandoned the most highly-populated and industrialised areas of the country.

Sadurian Mike wrote:


Nearly 1000 German tanks and armoured cars were destroyed during the invasion, a figure which somewhat belies the idea that the Poles could not fight the tanks. As a guide, the Germans invaded with about 2400 tanks (I do not have the figures for armoured cars but there would have been far fewer).



The Polish air force gave the Luftwaffe more of a mauling than is usually credited as well - the Germans lost 285 planes with another 279 damaged beyond repair, to 333 Polish planes lost. Wikipedia summarises it by saying that "Poland cost the Germans approximately the equipment of an entire armored division and 25% of its air strength." (sic)

All of which meant that the Germans needed to spend the winter re-arming and still ended up invading France with fewer tanks than the French, many of which were Panzer I and II tanks (designed for training purposes and never intended to go to war) and Panzer 35(t) and 38(t) models captured from the Czechs.

Sadurian Mike wrote:

Poland had a serviceable anti-tank rifle in the wz.35, a good anti-tank gun in the Bofors 37mm wz.36, and a very good light tank in the shape of the 7TP (yet another variant of the British Vickers 6 ton). Had these, and other, weapons all been used to their best advantage Poland's history might well have been very different, but even so they combined to knock out a large percentage (roughly 30%) of the attacking German armour.


I believe that the wz.35 was so good, and so new, that it was top secret - so secret, in fact, that the weapons and ammo weren't issued until the week before the invasion.

Sadurian Mike wrote:

Interestingly, a weapon which proved highly effective were the Polish armoured trains. They are reported to have destroyed many German tanks (one is said to have destroyed 100 on its own) but were vulnerable to air attack. Armoured trains, seen as an anachronism by 1939, were used by several nations during the War, including Germany which reintroduced them after its experience in Poland.


At the Battle of Mokra, on the first day of the invasion, a combination of an armoured train and a cavalry division stopped the German advance dead.

Which leads me to...

Myth: Polish cavalry charged at German tanks with lances and sabres.

This was a propaganda myth put about by the Germans following the Skirmish at Krojanty (when Polish cavalry caught German infantry resting in the open and mounted a rare sabre-charge before being driven off by armoured cars) - the Germans intended it to demonstrate the stupidity and naivety of the Poles; the Western media picked it up as an example of their heroism and romantic gallantry and swallowed it whole.

 
Jenny
846448.  Wed Sep 14, 2011 9:32 am Reply with quote

Welcome Brickie :-)

It looks as if Sadurian Mike has found a friend!

 
'yorz
846520.  Wed Sep 14, 2011 2:11 pm Reply with quote

Brickie may prove to be a bob in disguise... :)

 
Sadurian Mike
846523.  Wed Sep 14, 2011 2:21 pm Reply with quote

Jenny wrote:
Welcome Brickie :-)

It looks as if Sadurian Mike has found a friend!

Looks good to me.

I hope he'll stay around when I'm writing my Mil History esays next year!

Brickie; is the Polish campaign your speciality or are you (like me) a general early WW2 fan?

 
Brickie
846632.  Thu Sep 15, 2011 3:19 am Reply with quote

Sadurian Mike wrote:
Jenny wrote:
Welcome Brickie :-)

It looks as if Sadurian Mike has found a friend!

Looks good to me.

I hope he'll stay around when I'm writing my Mil History esays next year!

Brickie; is the Polish campaign your speciality or are you (like me) a general early WW2 fan?


I'm working on a novel based on the adventures of a Polish pilot from September 1939 up to the Battle of Britain, so I've been doing some research down at the Sikorski Institute and online.

But yes, I'm also generally interested in the early war, the stuff that doesn't get written about or films made so much.

 
Brickie
846635.  Thu Sep 15, 2011 3:24 am Reply with quote

'yorz wrote:
Brickie may prove to be a bob in disguise... :)


Is that ... good...?

 
'yorz
846648.  Thu Sep 15, 2011 3:46 am Reply with quote

I think it would be. But I fear I'd be a very lonely voice in the desert.
Nevertheless, it would liven up things big time :)

 
soup
846737.  Thu Sep 15, 2011 7:21 am Reply with quote

Bob may be many things, but I can't see him hiding behind a pseudonym.

 
Brickie
846740.  Thu Sep 15, 2011 7:28 am Reply with quote

soup wrote:
Bob may be many things, but I can't see him hiding behind a pseudonym.


Having read a bit more around the forums, would this be the estimable bobwilson?

No, that's definitely not me. He's a prat, I'm not. I hope. Also, you'll notice that I'm agreeing with Mike and amplifying his comments, rather than deliberately misinterpreting him in order to create straw men to further my conspiracy theories.

I may be entirely misrepresenting bobwilson, but that's the impression I get elsewhere...

 
'yorz
846743.  Thu Sep 15, 2011 7:32 am Reply with quote

That sounds like wor bob alright. :)

 
Brickie
846745.  Thu Sep 15, 2011 7:36 am Reply with quote

As opposed to "War Bob"?

 
Sadurian Mike
846810.  Thu Sep 15, 2011 10:13 am Reply with quote

Brickie wrote:
Sadurian Mike wrote:
Jenny wrote:
Welcome Brickie :-)

It looks as if Sadurian Mike has found a friend!

Looks good to me.

I hope he'll stay around when I'm writing my Mil History esays next year!

Brickie; is the Polish campaign your speciality or are you (like me) a general early WW2 fan?


I'm working on a novel based on the adventures of a Polish pilot from September 1939 up to the Battle of Britain, so I've been doing some research down at the Sikorski Institute and online.

But yes, I'm also generally interested in the early war, the stuff that doesn't get written about or films made so much.

Marvelous. Sounds like we have much to discuss....

 
bobwilson
849084.  Wed Sep 21, 2011 7:43 pm Reply with quote

Brickie wrote:
soup wrote:
Bob may be many things, but I can't see him hiding behind a pseudonym.


Having read a bit more around the forums, would this be the estimable bobwilson?

No, that's definitely not me. He's a prat, I'm not. I hope. Also, you'll notice that I'm agreeing with Mike and amplifying his comments, rather than deliberately misinterpreting him in order to create straw men to further my conspiracy theories.

I may be entirely misrepresenting bobwilson, but that's the impression I get elsewhere...


Ah - to see ourselves as others see us. Although I'm not sure where I've deliberately misinterpreted Mike, created straw men, or indulged in conspiracy theories.

 

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