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Henri the Cheat

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Sadurian Mike
638875.  Fri Nov 20, 2009 8:20 pm Reply with quote

It would set a dangerous precedent but I can certainly understand the Irish howls of protest (I recall similar, unproductive, howls about Argentina not so many years ago).

Henry (I think it is Henry rather than Henri) admitted he was at fault at the time, which is certainly more than Maradonna did, but I think he is still going to have a hard time shaking off the repercussions from non-French fans and sports press.

 
bobwilson
638885.  Fri Nov 20, 2009 8:54 pm Reply with quote

Oooh - a football thing I know something of!

Seems to me the game is ruled by the umpire (or is it a referee - I get confused sometimes). He didn't see (or didn't act) on the event - end of story.

 
Sadurian Mike
638890.  Fri Nov 20, 2009 9:03 pm Reply with quote

That's part of the controversy (and the referee has been slated as well). The handball was fairly obvious, not least because it reversed the direction of the ball, and the referee or one of his linesmen ought to have been watching Henry as he was the player on the ball at the time.

If nothing else, the linesman ought to have been watching the ball to see whether it was going out of play or not.

 
eggshaped
638891.  Fri Nov 20, 2009 9:12 pm Reply with quote

Lest us not forget that RoI got an equally ludicrous decision in their favour earlier in the campaign; against Georgia IIRC. There were no calls from the Irish FA to replay that game, so why now?

 
bobwilson
638892.  Fri Nov 20, 2009 9:13 pm Reply with quote

Ought to and should have - OK. But didn't - and that's the end of it. Either you accept the decision of the umpire or you have to accept the idea that all games are subject to a later review (no doubt by a committee).

 
eggshaped
638893.  Fri Nov 20, 2009 9:20 pm Reply with quote

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jf9fx4ipF4Q

The Georgia match.

 
Sadurian Mike
638894.  Fri Nov 20, 2009 9:23 pm Reply with quote

That's the problem. The games are played under the same rules and standards as domestic games, and we see refereeing mistakes being made week in and week out.

Mistakes in domestic games, however, generally result in a few points not being gained rather than the consequences of this defeat for Ireland.

So, we either change the way the game is played globally, or we have to put up with this sort of mistake in high-profile, high-stakes games.

 
Sadurian Mike
638895.  Fri Nov 20, 2009 9:26 pm Reply with quote

eggshaped wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jf9fx4ipF4Q

The Georgia match.

I hadn't seen that one, thanks eggshaped. I do love the way he refused to go and consult with his linesman.

Are we seeing a duff batch of officials this time around?

 
thegrandwazoo
638905.  Fri Nov 20, 2009 10:23 pm Reply with quote

I loved Roy Keanes interview. No hard feelings there towards the Irish FA. He's dead right of course. Game over, you lost. I bet that reporter makes sure his phone is off next time he goes to a Keane press conference! If looks could kill.
What is concerning is FIFA's meddling with the play off draw. That's where I think Ireland got shafted.
I'm just sorry it didn't happen to Scotland. Maybe their fans wouldn't have such a rosy view of handball cheats then.

 
Sadurian Mike
638906.  Fri Nov 20, 2009 10:35 pm Reply with quote

I've just seen that one myself, hilarious.

 
Sadurian Mike
638907.  Fri Nov 20, 2009 10:43 pm Reply with quote

bobwilson wrote:
Ought to and should have - OK. But didn't - and that's the end of it.

Not quite.

As far as the game goes then, yes, the decision is hardly likely to be over-turned and it probably wouldn't be helpful at this stage for that to happen.

However; the officials are expected to be able to have certain minimal standards of refereeing, and to make such a basic error between them as to not be watching Henry or the ball at that point is hardly what you should expect of World Cup officials.

Henry himself? I think he knew what he was doing at the time; certainly he appears to deliberately scoop the ball back into play. A bit of cheating that he got away with, just like Maradonna in 1986.

Whether or not the referee got it wrong and whether or not Henry cheated, however, are seperate issues to whether or not the result should be somehow adjusted in retrospect.

 
suze
638931.  Sat Nov 21, 2009 6:14 am Reply with quote

In general, I go along with the notion that you can't go replaying games every time the referee gets something wrong. There's a problem here though - in recent years it's become clear that you sometimes can.

The BBC got Graham Poll on for an interview which was on several news broadcasts, and he mentioned an incident when a game between Bahrain and Uzbekistan was ordered to be replayed. On that occasion, a Japanese referee had awarded a free kick to Bahrain upon an Uzbek player encroaching into the penalty area as his team was about to take a penalty. That's wrong; the correct action in that event is to tell the encroaching player off and then have another go at the penalty.

Uzbekistan protested even though it won the game 1-0, and FIFA ordered the game replayed. As it happens, the replayed game ended 1-1 - and this led to Uzbekistan's elimination from the tournament. Had the original 1-0 stood, Uzbekistan would have gone on to meet Trinidad and Tobago for a place in the finals.

And then of course, there is Mr Poll's own inability to count to two. During the match between Australia and Croatia which was the best game of the 2006 World Cup, Mr Poll booked the same Croatian player twice without sending him off. As it happened, it made no difference - there were no further goals after this incident. But FIFA confirmed a day or two later that, had Croatia scored while it had an "extra player", the match would have been voided and replayed.

In the interview, Mr Poll sought to draw a distinction between a referee getting the rules wrong in these sorts of ways, and a referee just getting a decision wrong. I'm not convinced that this distinction really exists.

 
Davini994
638954.  Sat Nov 21, 2009 9:40 am Reply with quote

eggshaped wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jf9fx4ipF4Q

The Georgia match.

What did he give it for? The tackle outside the area?

 
Sadurian Mike
639002.  Sat Nov 21, 2009 2:41 pm Reply with quote

Davini994 wrote:
eggshaped wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jf9fx4ipF4Q

The Georgia match.

What did he give it for? The tackle outside the area?

I think it was for Michael Flatterlattery and Riverdance.

 
thegrandwazoo
639132.  Sat Nov 21, 2009 8:28 pm Reply with quote

suze wrote:
In general, I go along with the notion that you can't go replaying games every time the referee gets something wrong. There's a problem here though - in recent years it's become clear that you sometimes can.

The BBC got Graham Poll on for an interview which was on several news broadcasts, and he mentioned an incident when a game between Bahrain and Uzbekistan was ordered to be replayed. On that occasion, a Japanese referee had awarded a free kick to Bahrain upon an Uzbek player encroaching into the penalty area as his team was about to take a penalty. That's wrong; the correct action in that event is to tell the encroaching player off and then have another go at the penalty.

Uzbekistan protested even though it won the game 1-0, and FIFA ordered the game replayed. As it happens, the replayed game ended 1-1 - and this led to Uzbekistan's elimination from the tournament. Had the original 1-0 stood, Uzbekistan would have gone on to meet Trinidad and Tobago for a place in the finals.

And then of course, there is Mr Poll's own inability to count to two. During the match between Australia and Croatia which was the best game of the 2006 World Cup, Mr Poll booked the same Croatian player twice without sending him off. As it happened, it made no difference - there were no further goals after this incident. But FIFA confirmed a day or two later that, had Croatia scored while it had an "extra player", the match would have been voided and replayed.

In the interview, Mr Poll sought to draw a distinction between a referee getting the rules wrong in these sorts of ways, and a referee just getting a decision wrong. I'm not convinced that this distinction really exists.


Apparently there is scope in the rules for FIFA to order a replay if a technical mistake is made by the ref such as the encroachment issue. However there is no such rule for the ref making a wrong call on a playing incident. This is totally understandable as in almost every game a contentious issue comes up which affects the outcome. Offsides and penalty appeals are the obvious ones.
I don't know if the FA have a similar rule of appeal because I would have thought Liverpool would have exercised it after the beachball (I've only just stopped laughing!).
Ireland were shafted but it was in the FIFA committee room and not by Henri and the ref, that's just the way the game goes.

 

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