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Heraldry

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Celebaelin
630821.  Thu Oct 29, 2009 11:22 am Reply with quote

Heraldry should be good for some comedy, without going into huge detail I'm sure there's some milage in asking

"Would you rather have a party per bend or a party per pale? (Or some such, to say nothing of the complications of Nebuly).

The joke being that they are divisions of the field.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heraldry
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Division_of_the_field

Richard III's symbol was a white boar, there is a piece of doggerel which I've referred to before which dubs Richard a hog for this reason (the supposed author was executed) and in Norwich (the Norwich of the time was a supporter of Richard) there is a pub called The Hog in Armour. I had always assumed that this referred to Richard III but it seems that it is an expression

Quote:
Hog in Armour A person of awkward manners dressed so fine that he cannot move easily. A corruption of "Hodge in armour." Source: Brewer's Dictionary.

http://www.websters-online-dictionary.org/Ho/Hog+in+Armour.html

The boar was not however Richard's proper heraldic device which as king (full achievement) was the arms of the house of York with white boar supporters.



Quote:
The cat, the rat, and Lovell the dog, rule all England under the hog

The Catte the Ratte And Louell our dogge Rulyth all Englande under a hogge. The whiche was ment that Catisby Ratclyffe And the Lord Louell Ruled the lande under the kynge.
[1516 R. Fabyan New Chronicles of England & France viii. 219V]

[Richard III executed] a poore gentleman called Collingborne [in 1484], for making a small rime of three of his‥ councellors,‥lord Louell, sir Richard Ratcliffe‥and sir William Catesbie. ‥The Cat, the Rat, and Louell our dog, Rule all England vnder an hog. Meaning by the hog, the‥wild boare, which was the Kings cognisance [coat of arms].
[1586 R. Holinshed Chronicles III. 746]

‘His name‥was Lovel.’ ‘What! the cat, the rat, and Lovel our dog? Was he descended from King Richard's favourite?’
[1816 Scott Antiquary ii.]

The cat, the rat and Lovell, the dog, Rule all England under the hog. ‥The hog was Richard the Third.
[1973 A. Christie Postern of Fate i. ii.]

http://www.answers.com/topic/the-cat-the-rat-and-lovell-the-dog-rule-all-england-under-the-hog

Quote:
Following the deposition of Henry VI in 1461, Edward IV created Richard Duke of Gloucester. Richard adopted the white boar as his personal badge and the motto "Loyaulte me lie" - loyalty binds me. It is possible that the choice of a boar or "bore" was because it is an anagram of the first four letters of Eboracum, the old Roman name for York, a reference to his father's descent.

http://www.windrushbowmen.org.uk/gloucester.html

 
Spud McLaren
630986.  Thu Oct 29, 2009 9:05 pm Reply with quote

You're right, heraldry's got to be good for a few misleading/ cheap gags.

The Scrope v. Scrope (v. Scrope) case deserves a mention, with the minor appellant being allowed to retain the use of the Scrope arms at the same time as the winner of the case, the reason being that he was elderly (by the standards of the day) and intestate, so his continuing to use the arms would inconvenience nobody.

This case is slightly more amusing for those of us who can remember the songs of Rambling Sid Rumpo (Kenneth Williams).

 
Bondee
631211.  Fri Oct 30, 2009 2:26 pm Reply with quote

From On Her Majesty's Secret Service...
(I'm writing from memory so this may not be correct)

James Bond (as Sir Hilary Bray): Now, when we authorise a coat of arms it can include all sorts of funny things. Crescent moons, portcullises, beasts couchant and rampant...

...bars, bezants...

Female "patient" at the Piz Gloria "Allergy Clinic": Please, what is bezant?

James Bond: Gold balls. I brought a book on the subject. There's a picture of my own coat of arms...

...which includes four of them.

<several patients, all of them female, gasp>

 
exnihilo
631471.  Sat Oct 31, 2009 9:31 am Reply with quote

It could possibly be interesting to look at some recent grants of arms and see if the panellists can guess whose they are, the obvious ones being politicians and the like, but I see that Loyd Grossman has had a recent grant as well.

Alternatively, the hilarious puns that heralds love, such as moorhens for the More family, bows and lions for the Earls of Strathmore and so forth.

 
tetsabb
631478.  Sat Oct 31, 2009 10:10 am Reply with quote

Make of this what you will. (My family coat of arms)

 
Celebaelin
631514.  Sat Oct 31, 2009 12:50 pm Reply with quote

There are at least 10 (and probably a lot more) coats of arms associated with families having my surname; I have no idea if I'm related to any of them but I doubt it. The coolest one is just a red lion rampant on a gold field (a bit like the arms of Scotland but without the lines round the edge), unsurprisingly there are foreign equivalents, Gribbin (Irish), de Ginestoux (French) and Veto (Spanish).



Or, lion rampant gules.

 
mckeonj
631550.  Sat Oct 31, 2009 4:16 pm Reply with quote


This is the McKeon/Johnson shield, of the Irish and Scots septs
The motto is "Semper Eadem/Aye Ready"
The four spurs at the top are battle honours
The red hand represents knowledge, below is the salmon of wisdom.
I like to think that this says: "Have knowledge AND wisdom, one is useless without the other."

Heraldic symbols sometimes do not represent what they seem to represent: the red hand represents knowledge because the whole Ogham alphabet can be spelled out on the hand in two different ways. The salmon represents wisdom because of the legend of the boy who accidentally had the first taste of its flesh; Finn MacCool in Ireland, Taleisin in Wales. This differs from the spurious legend of the 'red hand of Ulster' being the severed hand of O'Neill claiming Ireland.

Heralds sometimes produced punning arms, as mentioned above, another such is that of the Maunsell family, which has three curious V shapes; these are actually sleeves - 'maunche/maunse' is Norman French for 'sleeve'. The English Channel is La Manche to the French.
The Maunsell name is Quite Interesting, especially to steamheads and military historians. Try these search terms:
maunsell +steam
maunsell +fort

 
Ion Zone
631557.  Sat Oct 31, 2009 4:29 pm Reply with quote

I think my family has a lost coat of arms.

 
Celebaelin
631562.  Sat Oct 31, 2009 4:46 pm Reply with quote

I'll get my coat...

 
suze
631593.  Sat Oct 31, 2009 5:49 pm Reply with quote

exnihilo wrote:
Alternatively, the hilarious puns that heralds love, such as moorhens for the More family, bows and lions for the Earls of Strathmore and so forth.


As for Sir George Martin's coat of arms (same page as Loyd Grossman's), well ! Only three beetles on the shield; who didn't he like?

And then there's his motto - amore solum opus est. "Love is all you need", of course, but shouldn't "love" be in the nominative (i.e. amor)?

No one who reads these forums would do anything like using bad Latin on a tattoo - the likes of 96aelw and exnihilo will make sure of that - but hey, who's ever going to see a mere coat of arms ...

 
Ion Zone
631613.  Sat Oct 31, 2009 6:16 pm Reply with quote

Terry Pratchett spoofed this quite rigorously. :)

 
Celebaelin
631618.  Sat Oct 31, 2009 6:20 pm Reply with quote

I'm not sure that heraldic latin is the real deal technically speaking. Whilst we're on the subject my father tells a story wherein he had to visit Clarence King of Arms to get the coat for 5004 squadron approved (this may not be strictly accurate, at least one Wiki article states they were active in 1941, when he was 12 - on the other hand Wiki may be wrong and/or the award of arms may have occurred some time after the war. I'll check when I next speak to him). Aaaaaanyway, the latin phrase he arrived at the meeting with was Omnia fecit (or some such) but that got altered to Omnia ad aedificationem as using fecare could have the connotation Always on the make!



That's a beaver's head (industriousness) and a pair of dividers (accuracy) btw


Last edited by Celebaelin on Thu Nov 05, 2009 11:33 am; edited 1 time in total

 
96aelw
631858.  Sun Nov 01, 2009 10:08 am Reply with quote

suze wrote:
And then there's his motto - amore solum opus est. "Love is all you need", of course, but shouldn't "love" be in the nominative (i.e. amor)?

No one who reads these forums would do anything like using bad Latin on a tattoo - the likes of 96aelw and exnihilo will make sure of that - but hey, who's ever going to see a mere coat of arms ...


I'm afraid that Sir George's Latin is quite correct (well, I don't know how it is in general, but that phrase is fine). It could be translated more pedantically as "There is a need only for love"; he's using the phrase "opus est" to express need (with opus being the subject and therefore in the nominative), and, in such circumstances, the thing needed, in this case love, goes into the ablative.

 
Spud McLaren
631861.  Sun Nov 01, 2009 10:18 am Reply with quote

Mottos would deserve a thread all to themselves. I often wonder about the circumstances that led some bearers to express their intentions so obliquely.

A couple of favourites:

Honi soit qui mal y pense
Touch not the cat bot [without] a glove

 
exnihilo
631888.  Sun Nov 01, 2009 11:16 am Reply with quote

When the Earl of Crawford and Balcarres was installed as Rector of St Andrews University one of the Halls of Residence presented him with a kitten and a leather gauntlet, in recognition of his family motto.

 

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