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D flat major

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Gaazy
49096.  Thu Feb 02, 2006 1:41 pm Reply with quote

No, not all all, Z - in about 99.9% of cases, the term will always follow your definition.

I do like the idea of an "aggregate" chord, though - an elbow along the piano keys should do it.

 
Celebaelin
49144.  Fri Feb 03, 2006 12:50 am Reply with quote

Can anyone tell me what the following chord is? I won't pretend to know anything terribly technical but I can tell you that it works well in a little thing I've written to be (supposedly) in Fm. The mandolin chord book I got it from in its original form listed it as Ab(Triangle)7 which I assumed would signify a dominant seventh. Is that so and if not what is it?


.....7... |....6....|... 5.....|....4
______|______|______|___O__E (Ab)
______|__O__ |______|______ A (Eb)
______|______|______|______ D
______|______|__O__ |______ G (C)
__O__ |______|______|______ B (G)
______|______|______|______ E

I note that if you played the G on the third fret of the top E and fretted the D string on the sixth fret and the B string on the fourth fret then it would be a conventional major chord shape, Ab in this instance; if that's what it is what does the triangle signify and how did I loose it in moving the chord from mandolin to guitar? The additional octaves wouldn't make any difference to what chord it was...would they?

 
Gaazy
49146.  Fri Feb 03, 2006 2:46 am Reply with quote

I'm sorry, I can't follow the diagram; I'm no guitarist, but I can't stretch from 4th to 7th fret and incorporate all the other fingerings. Is there meant to be a barré there? If the notes in brackets represent the results of the fingering, the chord gets close to the "aggregate simultaneity" I touched on before, and sounds like a multiple suspension with its resolution on Fm.

But there's one question I can answer - Ab(triangle)7 is the conventional notation for a major (not a dominant) 7th; that is, a triad of Ab plus a G natural, rather than a G flat.

 
Celebaelin
49150.  Fri Feb 03, 2006 3:34 am Reply with quote

Gaazy wrote:
I'm sorry, I can't follow the diagram; I'm no guitarist, but I can't stretch from 4th to 7th fret and incorporate all the other fingerings.

Well you're clearly just not trying! I can play it easily enough, my "beast" (A Washburn signature - lots of frets on a longer fretboard but with consequently shorter lengths per fret and with the pick-ups replaced with those from a G8V) is always a godsend though because my fingers aren't very long but I think I'd be able to manage that on most guitars, certainly most electrics.

Gaazy wrote:
If the notes in brackets represent the results of the fingering, the chord gets close to the "aggregate simultaneity" I touched on before, and sounds like a multiple suspension with its resolution on Fm.


They do indeed. Ah, yes; well that's was my intended approach obviously *enigmatic smirk* WHAT?

Gaazy wrote:
But there's one question I can answer - Ab(triangle)7 is the conventional notation for a major (not a dominant) 7th; that is, a triad of Ab plus a G natural, rather than a G flat.

You've let yourself in for it now, but from the sounds of it you'll be able to answer this easily.

Is this convincing as Gm7b5?

....4.....|....3.....|....2....|.....1
______|______|______|______ E
______|______|______|__ O__ A (A#)
______|__ O__|______|______ D (F)
______|______|______|______ G
______|______|__ O__|______ B (C#)
______|__ O__|______|______ E (G)

and this for Cm7?

.....6....|....5....|.....4....|.....3....
______|______|______|______ E
______|______|______|__ O__ A (A#) (er...no...C)
______|______|______|______ D
______|______|______|__ O __ G (G#) (A#)
______|______|__ O _ |______ B (C#) (Eb)!
______|______|______|__ O __ E (F) (G)

<Edit> Gosend = godsend, amended Cm7


Last edited by Celebaelin on Fri Feb 03, 2006 6:34 am; edited 2 times in total

 
Gaazy
49154.  Fri Feb 03, 2006 4:33 am Reply with quote

Celebaelin wrote:
Well you're clearly just not trying!

Nope, I still can't do it. As I say, I'm not a guitarist - I just picked up a guitar that's lying around, and it's evident that real guitarists get to be able to stretch their fingers more than pianists do (I can easily span a major tenth on a keyboard, even incorporating the 5th and 7th).

But I think I'm misreading your chord diagrams, not being too familiar with them.


Celebaelin wrote:
Is this convincing as Gm7b5?

....4.....|....3.....|....2....|.....1
______|______|______|______ E
______|______|______|__ O__ A (A#)
______|__ O__|______|______ D (F)
______|______|______|______ G
______|______|__ O__|______ B (C#)
______|__ O__|______|______ E (G)

and this for Cm7?

.....6....|....5....|.....4....|.....3....
______|______|______|______ E
______|______|______|__ O__ A (A#)
______|______|______|______ D
______|______|______|__ O __ G (G#)
______|______|__ O _ |______ B (C#)
______|______|______|__ O __ E (F)


I've transcribed the notes on the right hand side of your diagrams to keyboard, and they don't remind me immediately of the chords you mention, so I think I'll leave this to guitarists.

(Bows out and returns to composition of 45-minute cantata for soloists, multiple choirs and brass bands. No, really.)


Last edited by Gaazy on Fri Feb 03, 2006 6:02 am; edited 1 time in total

 
Celebaelin
49165.  Fri Feb 03, 2006 5:17 am Reply with quote

Well I hope I haen't got any of that wrong, I'm fairly sure what I wrote is correct. The full extent of the 4th to 7th frets on me axe is only 4 inches; I find that shape rather easy in fact, perhaps that's why I kept it rather than saying to myself 'nope, can't play it that way'. Thanks for your time anyway.

 
Flash
49176.  Fri Feb 03, 2006 5:50 am Reply with quote

The one you have for Gm7 b5 seems actually to be Gm13 b5 (because of the E, the 13th - if you raise that a semitone to F you should be OK). The other one is unclear, as you've marked fret numbers along the top which don't give the notes you've put in brackets. Going with the notes in brackets this would seem to be a bit of a bag of knitting but certainly not C minor anything as it doesn't feature an Eb (or a C, come to that, though I suppose you could anticipate that Gray will be playing that on his bass fiddle).


Last edited by Flash on Fri Feb 03, 2006 6:08 am; edited 1 time in total

 
Celebaelin
49179.  Fri Feb 03, 2006 6:02 am Reply with quote

Indeed they don't! Sorry about that, they should be top to bottom C, A#, D#(Eb) and G (I corrected the fret numbers after writing them in).

Gm13 b5? Might be, now you mention it.

I truly confused anyway, I've been trying to figure out if Gm7 is the same as Bb6 without much hope of success, any pointers?

 
Gaazy
49181.  Fri Feb 03, 2006 6:05 am Reply with quote

They contain the same notes but fulfil different harmonic functions; for a guitarist not providing the bass they would be interchangeable, but for a keyboard player the initial letter would ensure that the bass note is correct.

 
Flash
49182.  Fri Feb 03, 2006 6:11 am Reply with quote

Sorry, I just sneaked in an edit which you will have missed. In the Gm13 b5 the rogue note is the E (the 13th). If you raise that a semitone (ie play the 1st fret instead of the open E) you'll be back to the Gm7 b5. Or you could just not play the E string at all as you already have a F.

 
Celebaelin
49183.  Fri Feb 03, 2006 6:16 am Reply with quote

Aha! I should have said - I'm not playing the open strings at all in any of the examples, they're muted. I should have put an X by them, sorry. Much of this is a function of playing with distortion when barre chords tend to sound too confused to be pleasing to the ear, much of rock is played in perfect fifths or triads (but not this).

 
Flash
49184.  Fri Feb 03, 2006 6:20 am Reply with quote

Reference the Cm7, you now have E, C, D, Bb, Eb, and G. For your Cm7 you need only C, Eb, G, and Bb so if you leave out the open E and D strings (as you plan to) you should be OK. Or you could raise the D to an Eb without much difficulty.

Despite which, and despite the fact that the guitar is a sharpening kind of an instrument, the Eb is an Eb and not a D#. Although they may be the same note, minors have flatted 3rds, not sharpened 2nds (ie the scale of C minor has a D natural, but not an E natural).


Last edited by Flash on Fri Feb 03, 2006 6:27 am; edited 2 times in total

 
Celebaelin
49187.  Fri Feb 03, 2006 6:23 am Reply with quote

Amidst much cross-posting a pattern is emerging; all contributions gratefully recieved!

 
Gray
49194.  Fri Feb 03, 2006 7:21 am Reply with quote

<plays big fat C on the bass fiddle>

Help any?

 
Gray
49196.  Fri Feb 03, 2006 7:30 am Reply with quote

Incidentally, just playing the 'O' notes indicated, the first chord seems to be a Bbm+6 (if Bb is taken as the root of the chord), or a Gmb5 (if G is taken as the root).

The second seems to be a Cm7 chord (if C is taken to be the root), but could also be an F7sus4 chord (if F is taken as the root).

Different chord names are appropriate to different musical contexts - notably the bass notes and the surrounding chord progression.

 

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