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campbell bannerman, pensions ???? (wrong)

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26961.  Sat Oct 15, 2005 9:38 am Reply with quote

Well spotted - another one for the retractions special.

Asquith's birth date (12/9/1852) is an anagram of his death date (15/2/1928). There you go, you learn something of value every day.

26983.  Sat Oct 15, 2005 11:05 am Reply with quote

Did Shakespeare REALLY die on his birthday?

26984.  Sat Oct 15, 2005 11:28 am Reply with quote

Probably not. He wasn't born on his 'birthday', either. Nobody knows on what day he was born.

He was baptized on 26th April, 1564 and died on 23rd April, 1616.

The supposition is that he 'might' have been born three days before he was baptized.

s: EBR

26986.  Sat Oct 15, 2005 11:49 am Reply with quote


It's true that Lloyd George introduced the Old Age Pensions Act as Chancellor in 1908, but it's more complicated than that, and Campbell Bannerman deserves the credit.

The moves to introduce the law setting up Old Age Pensions began under Campbell-Bannerman's Liberal Government of 1906-8 in which both Asquith and Lloyd George were members of Campbell Bannerman's cabinet.

Asquith was then Chancellor and it was he who, under Campbell Bannerman's premiership and instruction, began the preparotory work for the bill.

When Campbell Bannerman suddenly died in 1908, Asquith moved up to Prime Minister, and Lloyd George to Chancellor.

Lloyd George physically introduced the bill but it was really only the culmination of work in progress.

Not so fast with your retractions, Flashy, if you don't mind...

26992.  Sat Oct 15, 2005 12:11 pm Reply with quote

I retract my retraction, very fast.

27270.  Tue Oct 18, 2005 12:10 pm Reply with quote

I did not know about Campbell Bannerman's involvement, but I doubt he deserves the credit. When the hardest part of any radical piece of legislation is getting it through the commons and lords especially before the parliament act came in curbing the power of the Lords.

In any case the statement is still misleading, a bit like saying the Germans introduced labour exchanges to Britain, when Winston Churchill borrowed, adapted and introduced them (no idea is original) and due to factors like the House of Lords the legislation probably did not much resemble the work of Bannerman anyway.

27277.  Tue Oct 18, 2005 1:30 pm Reply with quote

You seem to have contradicted yourself a bit there Brains.

The longest and hardest part of the legislation took less than 8 months, 4 of which parliament was in recess

I would say this was proof enough that Campbell Bannerman was indeed instrumental in the introduction of the old age pension act 1908.

I did also find out some other quite interesting facts about Parliament, I'll post them around later.

27291.  Tue Oct 18, 2005 3:46 pm Reply with quote

My uncle was born, and died, on the same day. Different month and year, but same day.

27313.  Tue Oct 18, 2005 7:29 pm Reply with quote


Fair point.

But no one is claiming that Campbell Bannerman deserves ALL the credit or seeking to remove a rightful share of it from Lloyd George (or Asquith).

The trades union leader, George Barnes, General Secretary of the Amalgated Society of Engineers and later a Labour MP, had been lobbying for an Old Age Pension since 1902, for example.

The only point that Stephen was making on the show was that Campbell Bannerman was a good egg and a reformer who helped do some genuine good.

Rarely (if ever) does one single person achieve major social change on their own.

27341.  Wed Oct 19, 2005 4:56 am Reply with quote

"I did not know about Campbell Bannerman's involvement, but I doubt he deserves the credit. When the hardest part of any radical piece of legislation is getting it through the commons and lords especially before the parliament act came in curbing the power of the Lords. "

In which case, the credit goes to the Leader of the House and the Chief Whip. I really don't think PMs have much to do, directly, with getting legislation through.

Besides which, parliament is only the final stage: all change comes from below; reform is caused by popular pressure which eventually forces the rulers to make concessions. Every reform in this country in the 20th century came about because of a) growing trade union power and/or b) the existence of the USSR. As soon as the Berlin Wall came down, and the NUM had been defeated, they began dismantling our welfare state, civil liberties and so on, and at the same time increasing our working hours and years and reducing our wages and benefits. This wasn’t a coincidence.

27389.  Wed Oct 19, 2005 9:53 am Reply with quote

Hmm - interesting assertion Mat, but correlation, as we all know, isn't causation, and I'd like to see some other evidence for that.

27477.  Wed Oct 19, 2005 7:32 pm Reply with quote

I'm with you Mat!

Campbell Bannerman was really reacting (though sincerely, I believe) to pressure from the Labour Party which in turn arose from the Trades Union movement.

27506.  Thu Oct 20, 2005 3:35 am Reply with quote

Yes, I like Mat's notion too, mainly because it's a good combative line to take at a Rotary Club meeting. Trying to think of quibbles, though: didn't the TUC oppose our joining the Common Market? And weren't they also opposed to immigration in the '50s, and resistant to the Race Relations Act? I can't really remember properly because I'm so young, but those were the impressions I received in my sandpit. If so, those are two quite major progressive 'reforms' which seem to have been imposed on the trades unions rather than instigated by them.

27508.  Thu Oct 20, 2005 4:43 am Reply with quote

No, Flash - the Race Relations Act came about largely because of campaigning by the TUC. As for the Common Market/EEC/EC/EU/Windscale, broadly speaking there was (and is) a split in every country in Europe, between social democrats (who supported/support it) and socialists (who opposed/oppose it).

27509.  Thu Oct 20, 2005 4:44 am Reply with quote

Good. I'm off down the Rotary Club, then.


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