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Ian Dunn
600398.  Mon Aug 17, 2009 1:28 pm Reply with quote

The Vatician has attacked the British and Americans of complicity during the Holocaust.

An article in the Vatican's official newspaper, L'Osservatore Romano, claims that they knew about the final solution as early as 1942, but upon learning of it they first decided to surpress eye-witness reports and claiming their were exaggerated.

Source: Daily Mail

 
exnihilo
600406.  Mon Aug 17, 2009 1:37 pm Reply with quote

The BBC wrote:
17 December 1942: Britain condemns massacre of Jews

The British Foreign Secretary, Anthony Eden, has told the House of Commons about mass executions of Jews by Germans in occupied Europe.

Mr Eden also read out a United Nations declaration condemning "this bestial policy".

He said news of German atrocities sent in by the Polish Government and widely reported in the press this month would only serve to strengthen allied determination to fight Nazism and punish all those responsible.

After his announcement the House rose and held a one-minute silence in sympathy for the victims.


Sounds pretty suppressed to me. Full story here.

 
Ian Dunn
600410.  Mon Aug 17, 2009 1:43 pm Reply with quote

I know I shouldn't have used the Daily Mail as a source.

 
samivel
600415.  Mon Aug 17, 2009 1:46 pm Reply with quote

It's a bit of a pot/kettle hue comparison situation for the Vatican to accuse anyone of suppressing the truth of the Holocaust, isn't it?

 
bobwilson
600536.  Mon Aug 17, 2009 6:38 pm Reply with quote

For the record can I just point out that the "United Nations" referred to in the BBC article actually means the Allies and is not the same as the UN that we know today.

 
Celebaelin
600547.  Mon Aug 17, 2009 6:58 pm Reply with quote

I've certainly heard it said that the British government decided not to widely refer to the Nazi policy regarding Jews as it was thought that people would assume anything so grotesque must be propaganda and thus it would be counter-productive.

 
bobwilson
600551.  Mon Aug 17, 2009 7:02 pm Reply with quote

Quote:
the Nazi policy regarding Jews


Just another point of pedantry - it was the Nazi policy regarding "substandard humans" - which encompassed Jews most famously, but also included Gypsies, Slavs, the mentally disabled etc.

 
exnihilo
600666.  Tue Aug 18, 2009 5:29 am Reply with quote

Except, of course, that the "Final Solution" obliquely referenced in Eden's speech and explicitly in the Vatican statement linked above referred specifically to the Jews.

There's been a trend in recent years for some people, the very second the Holocaust is mentioned, to jump up and down and shout "not just Jews, not just Jews" and while nobody can dispute that that's untrue it is undeniably the case that the Jews were the principal focus or that their complete extermination was a specific purpose of the Nazi regime - they were not 'just another group' that was targeted.

 
Neotenic
600680.  Tue Aug 18, 2009 5:56 am Reply with quote

There's also the point that the 'Final Solution', as a term, is slightly truncated.

It was the 'Final Solution to the Jewish Question'.

 
dr.bob
600695.  Tue Aug 18, 2009 6:14 am Reply with quote

As I understand it, whilst the Allied forces were outspoken about mass executions of Jews in German occupied territories, they were less outspoken about concentration camps. I seem to recall reading somewhere that knowledge of concentration camps was suppressed by Allied command for some years after they first became aware of them.

Is that possibly what Celebaelin is referring to?

Disclaimer: as this information is being dragged up from my notoriously unreliable memory, it may all be complete bolleaux.

 
exnihilo
600708.  Tue Aug 18, 2009 6:35 am Reply with quote

Eden described the process of clearing the ghettos and the transportation of people in their hundreds of thousands to the camps in the very same speech. How widely the speech was reported, I do not know, but I imagine a bit of googling would provide the answer.

 
Curious Danny
600866.  Tue Aug 18, 2009 12:30 pm Reply with quote

I believe that it was common knowledge that prison camps existed in Germany, even in the 30s. I belive Goebbels admitted as much in a early 30s speech at the disarmament conference or just prior to leaving the League of Nations. I belive he even invited foreign powers to come and see them.

P.S as of yet, am looking for a source.

 
mckeonj
600886.  Tue Aug 18, 2009 1:34 pm Reply with quote

I think that the term 'concentration camp' was first used by the British in South Africa, to describe the camps in which the Boers were interned.

 
Flash
600903.  Tue Aug 18, 2009 2:38 pm Reply with quote

We ran that on the show once, though the question didn't make the cut. post 64748 refers:
Quote:
This is from Anne Applebaum's book Gulag: A History of the German Concentration Camps:

Quote:
By concentration camp, I mean camps constructed to incarcerate people not for what they have done, but for who they were. Unlike criminal prison camps, or prison-of-war camps, concentration camps were built for a particular type of non-criminal civilian prisoner, the member of an 'enemy' group, or at any rate of a category of people who, for reasons of their race or their presumed politics, were judged to be dangerous or extraneous to society.

According to this definition, the first modern concentration camps were set up not in Germany or Russia, but in colonial Cuba, in 1895. In that year, in an effort to put an end to a series of local insurgencies, imperial Spain began to prepare a policy of reconcentratión, intended to remove the Cuban peasants from their land and 'reconcentrate' them in camps, thereby depriving the insurgents of food, shelter and support. By 1900, the Spanish term reconcentratión had already been translated into English, and was used to describe a similar British project, initiated for similar reasons, during the Boer War in South Africa.

 
bobwilson
601035.  Tue Aug 18, 2009 8:04 pm Reply with quote

exnihilo wrote:
Except, of course, that the "Final Solution" obliquely referenced in Eden's speech and explicitly in the Vatican statement linked above referred specifically to the Jews.

There's been a trend in recent years for some people, the very second the Holocaust is mentioned, to jump up and down and shout "not just Jews, not just Jews" and while nobody can dispute that that's untrue it is undeniably the case that the Jews were the principal focus or that their complete extermination was a specific purpose of the Nazi regime - they were not 'just another group' that was targeted.


Wait just one cotton picking minute there ex.

Quote:
There's been a trend in recent years for some people, the very second the Holocaust is mentioned, to jump up and down and shout "not just Jews, not just Jews"


True - and I'm one of them. Mostly because the Holocaust is so often misrepresented as an action exclusively against Jews.

Quote:
it is undeniably the case that the Jews were the principal focus

It most certainly is deniable. The Nazi ideology was concerned with "sub-standard" humans - from his earliest rants in Mein Kampf Hitler raged against the slavs for instance, and about how they were misusing the lands they occupied. There weren't a whole lot of slavs living inside Nazi Germany though - but there was a substantial minority of Jews. The only reason that the Jews were the principal target was logistics - they were local, the slavs weren't. The ideology certainly targetted slavs.

The same applies to the mentally ill - there weren't six million mentally ill people killed in gas chambers for the simple reason that there weren't six million mentally ill people available.

The fundamental principle of Nazism was (and is) that there is an identifiable group which is naturally superior to all other groups - and that those other groups had to be neutralised/exterminated/subjugated. The only reason that the actual majority victims of Nazism in Germany in the 30's and 40's were Jews was purely due to proximity. One only has to look at the tactics deployed on the Eastern Front and the total disregard for human life there to see the same attitude (with much higher casualty figures) deployed against the slavic groups.

 

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