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Hyperreality

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Ion Zone
581739.  Thu Jul 09, 2009 6:49 pm Reply with quote

The Guinness record for the "world's strangest diet" is held by a man who ate a Cessna 150, including the glass, at a rate of two pounds of metal a day (sorry, not a kilo). The world's strangest diet.



I discovered this today while reading up on Notting Hill and Stonewall: Link and thought it contained an interesting addition that might make a good thought experiment. (If you want to discuss the riots themselves, I would be interested in a separate thread)

Here is the part I'm most interested in, where two subjective realities collide:

Quote:
In 1952, the American Psychiatric Association listed homosexuality in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual (DSM) as a sociopathic personality disturbance. A comprehensive study of homosexuality in 1962 justified inclusion of the disorder as a pathological hidden fear of the opposite sex that was caused by traumatic parent-child relationships. This view was widely influential in the medical profession.[11]


Read on:

Quote:
In 1956, however, Evelyn Hooker performed a study that compared the happiness and well-adjusted nature of self-identified homosexual men with heterosexual men and found no difference.[12] Her study stunned the medical community and made her a hero to many gay men and lesbians,[13] but homosexuality remained in the DSM until 1973.


I'm not trying to start a discussion over Stonewall (In this particular thread), but rather to highlight two colliding groups and their oposing subjective realities.

Here and now, almost everyone would side with Evelyn, because clearly she is right and the only one in possession of the facts.

It is now the 1960's.

Here and now, in this time and place, the American Psychiatric Association is, of course, clearly right, and the only ones in possession of the facts. Evelyn is a lone nutcase consorting with people proven to be sociopathic perverts.

It is still 1960s America. Who is right?

 
zomgmouse
581744.  Thu Jul 09, 2009 6:59 pm Reply with quote

Davini994 wrote:
So if something is subjective it's important who is doing the evaluating:


Another example: exams for maths are more objective to mark than exams for English literature.

I see your point, and I did say definitions weren't limited, but yes, that's a good way to put it.

Ion Zone wrote:
Who is right?

That's like asking two people of different religious beliefs, "who is right". It's not possible to determine an answer. Is the objective truth really out there for people to find and interpret subjectively, or is there no objective truth, meaning that people's subjective viewpoints are the truth?

 
gruff5
581900.  Fri Jul 10, 2009 4:50 am Reply with quote

zomgmouse wrote:
Another example: exams for maths are more objective to mark than exams for English literature.

Unless it's a question asking if 0.999... = 1 on which matter QI forum as amply demonstrated the potential for subjective discussion!

 
zomgmouse
581902.  Fri Jul 10, 2009 4:52 am Reply with quote

gruff5 wrote:
zomgmouse wrote:
Another example: exams for maths are more objective to mark than exams for English literature.

Unless it's a question asking if 0.999... = 1 on which matter QI forum as amply demonstrated the potential for subjective discussion!

Indeed, that's more philosophy than mathematics. But that's subjective.

 
Moosh
582108.  Fri Jul 10, 2009 8:18 am Reply with quote

gruff5 wrote:
zomgmouse wrote:
Another example: exams for maths are more objective to mark than exams for English literature.

Unless it's a question asking if 0.999... = 1 on which matter QI forum as amply demonstrated the potential for subjective discussion!

Can you remember where that discussion was? I'd be interested to see how that could be subjective when, as far as I'm aware, it's a solid fact, with the usual caveats.

 
gruff5
582132.  Fri Jul 10, 2009 8:48 am Reply with quote

Ah, but the devil is in the caveats, is it not? ;-)

It's been discussed more than once on QI, but the thread I got involved in started here:
post 232700

 
costean
582137.  Fri Jul 10, 2009 9:03 am Reply with quote

Quote:
It's been discussed more than once on QI ...

Yes, it has. This one comes round more times than Cruithne. Here is the discussion in a previous incarnation: post 27409.

 
Moosh
582158.  Fri Jul 10, 2009 9:36 am Reply with quote

gruff5 wrote:
Ah, but the devil is in the caveats, is it not? ;-)

It's been discussed more than once on QI, but the thread I got involved in started here:
post 232700


Having read through that thread, I now see you're using "subjective" in the sense of people who've studied it saying, and proving, it's true, and people who haven't saying it isn't. ;-)

 
gruff5
582206.  Fri Jul 10, 2009 11:31 am Reply with quote

Not really. In previous discussion on this one, there were people saying that mathematics is a cultural construct and doesn't exist independently of humankind "out there" (ie maths is subjective)

- and yet at the same time, those people were saying that it's not possible for the value of 0.999... to deviate from using the actual infinity, to using the potential infinity (ie there is only one kind of maths, it is objective)

I found this contradictory!

 
Ion Zone
582263.  Fri Jul 10, 2009 1:23 pm Reply with quote

That you lot can expend ninteen pages discussing if 0.999999r equels one says a lot about you. :}

 
Davini994
582271.  Fri Jul 10, 2009 1:45 pm Reply with quote

Ion Zone wrote:
The Guinness record for the "world's strangest diet" is held by a man who ate a Cessna 150, including the glass, at a rate of two pounds of metal a day (sorry, not a kilo). The world's strangest diet.

Well I can't find anything on the web that says it's not true, unlikely as it sounds, so that's me told.

What an amazing and stupid thing to do. It says on wiki he died when he tried to eat a building and one of the windows got cause on his bot on the way out and he bled to death. I'm not that sympathetic tbh.

 
ColinM
583021.  Sun Jul 12, 2009 12:30 pm Reply with quote

That some people think mathematics is subjective does not make it so. That some people can disagree with a fact does not make it subjective. Sometimes it just means those people are wrong.

There are important subjective elements to mathematics, but that doesn't make the entire thing subjective.

 
Ion Zone
583062.  Sun Jul 12, 2009 4:59 pm Reply with quote

He might have had Pica syndrome, and this is one of those "Well it didn't kill me the first time...." things (I've had that defence from smokers a lot).

 

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