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Moosh
612406.  Sun Sep 13, 2009 6:37 pm Reply with quote

What you said was:
Quote:
In all probability the transgender community will be pissed, and the rest of the gay\bisexual community will be behind them.


I'm not totally sure what you mean by gay\bisexual community, but to me it implies that you think all gay (for ease of typing, read "gay" as homosexual or bisexual for this post) people will form up and react together, either as a result of being mindless drones following the instructions of some "community leader" or through all being essentially identical and holding identical views.

This reminds me of a comment made elsewhere on this forum recently regarding people thinking that being gay automatically makes you left wing. You've essentially said the same thing, that being gay makes you not only care about this case, but disagree with excluding the athlete.

Now, it might be acceptable to suggest that most gay people would react the same way, on an issue that is primarily to do with sexuality, but an intersex runner has nothing to do with that.

This is not an LGB or even a T issue, so someone's sexuality is probably not something that would affect their stance on this issue.

 
exnihilo
612407.  Sun Sep 13, 2009 6:41 pm Reply with quote

Ion Zone wrote:
you lot are the ones who love categories, I'm just trying to talk in the same language



"You lot", Ion?? Careful now.

 
Ion Zone
612409.  Sun Sep 13, 2009 6:49 pm Reply with quote

Biologically, it seems parallel to me, and I thought the net of support went wide. All I meant was that you lot would be right behind her, if that didn't come across properly, sorry. I often don't come across properly, it is category related and a lack of smilies doesn't help.

Quote:
"You lot", Ion?? Careful now.


Yes all you lot, vis a vis normal humanity with your penchant for trying to put things in draws.


Last edited by Ion Zone on Sun Sep 13, 2009 6:52 pm; edited 1 time in total

 
exnihilo
612411.  Sun Sep 13, 2009 6:52 pm Reply with quote

Ion Zone wrote:
All I meant was that you lot would be right behind her


Quote:
Yes all you lot, vis a vis normal humanity with your penchant for trying to put things in draws.


No, not sure I understand, you've used "you lot" again and I can only suppose you mean gay people? Which makes "normal humanity" very dangerous waters!

 
Ion Zone
612412.  Sun Sep 13, 2009 6:55 pm Reply with quote

No, no, you lot, normal people. :P Specifically non autistics.

 
Ion Zone
612542.  Mon Sep 14, 2009 5:19 am Reply with quote

I apologize for last night. I have a great deal of trouble understanding feelings and the, call it a persona, I use was slipping. To clarify, the idea of a sexuality is meaningless to me as I do not have one of my own, and thus cannot relate, particularly through a medium that removes all substance but for flat text.

 
soup
612591.  Mon Sep 14, 2009 5:59 am Reply with quote

Ion Zone wrote:
No, no, you lot, normal people. :P Specifically non autistics.


So you are saying someone with autism is not 'normal'?

 
Ion Zone
612672.  Mon Sep 14, 2009 7:04 am Reply with quote

Yes I am.

 
soup
612678.  Mon Sep 14, 2009 7:08 am Reply with quote

Ion Zone wrote:
Yes I am.

Fair enough, you keep believing that they cant do things 'normal' people can do and that they are not normal, the rest of the world will keep on discriminating (after all if they ['the autistics']consider THEMSELVES different who are we to say that is wrong) and where is that going to get us?

 
Ion Zone
612697.  Mon Sep 14, 2009 7:19 am Reply with quote

Right were we send you, possibly.

I'm afraid I was being a bit blithe there as I am tired. Normality is, and has always been, a rather meaningless consept to which far too much weight is attached, I'm afraid I was making an allusion to that, but should have spelt it out.

 
thegrandwazoo
612727.  Mon Sep 14, 2009 8:06 am Reply with quote

With regard to Caster Semenya I think the South African athletics federation need to take a good look at themselves. They have been making a lot of outraged noises about the business but they are the ones responsible for putting the poor girl (I will use that gender until I see definitive proof otherwise and that is obviously what she sees herself as) in the worlds spotlight in the pursuit of medals. I can't believe that doubts hadn't been raised before and discreet tests could have been done but it seems they were too keen on the glory and no thought appears to have been given to the girl herself. At least the IAAF have said that whatever the outcome she will retain her medals. I can only imagine the distress she is going through at the moment.

 
Ion Zone
612728.  Mon Sep 14, 2009 8:09 am Reply with quote

That is good, at least, they left the idea that she would have to return them hanging over her head for quite a while, when the idea should never have been considered.

 
Jenny
612902.  Mon Sep 14, 2009 2:55 pm Reply with quote

I think by 'normal' Ion means what is often called 'neurotypical', if that helps.

 
Ion Zone
612945.  Mon Sep 14, 2009 3:51 pm Reply with quote

Yeah, that's the word. Though I was avoiding it.

 
Arcane
613075.  Mon Sep 14, 2009 9:14 pm Reply with quote

It's possible Caster Semanya has one of the conditions in this area:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Androgen_insensitivity_syndrome

I have seen articles and read cases of this; of course we don't know yet what exactly she does have, but this particular syndrome sprung to mind. It's quite a complex condition actually. Tests may reveal that she is in fact "intersexed", ie, not be completely male or female, and what happens with her athletic career I would imagine be determinate on that outcome. I wouldn't think she'd be allowed to compete as a female unless there's some sort of hormone therapy; with the amount of testosterone she has in her system I'd imagine it would be considered some sort of athletically unacceptable advantage. Her body has certainly developed in a very masculine way, whether that remains now again would depend on what she is diagnosed with, and what sort of treatment she will accept. I believe it is common medical practice to remove any internal testicular tissue as it can become cancerous, whether that is still the practice or not I'll try to dig out some articles. On reading various articles, it would seem she couldn't have Complete AIS, but possibly partial AIS, or something else, although PAIS has been mentioned most commonly. I

I have to say even the first time I looked at her I wondered that her appearance was very male, her bone structure and musculature is very male looking (note the strong jawline/heavier facial structure and defined biceps/large shoulders that are over and above what you would encounter even in powerful female athletes.) To me, she looked far more male than female. (although many female athletes do have suppressed menstruation, they at least do overwhelmingly appear female, I also have to wonder about Maria Mutola, who until I saw Caster Semanya was the most masculine looking female athlete I'd seen)

I would have to also wonder that the family didn't know something, surely if she was born without a uterus they would have noticed when she didn't menstruate and go through the normal female pubertal changes? Not to mention her behaviour and a apperance as a child was apparently masculine, certainly above being a "tomboy"; she was noted to be quite "rough" and wasn't allowed to compete on certain sporting teams?

It is unfortunate that some sections have stated that it is about "race", but this has happened in other cases, as you'll see below.

*Just found this interesting article, I was surprised to read that seven female athletes had been found to have AIS, so it's more common than is probably realised.

http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1918668,00.html

See also the case of Stella Walsh, who competed as a woman but was revealed under the most bizarre of circumstances to have ambiguous external genitalia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanis%C5%82awa_Walasiewicz

Indian athlete Santhi Soundarajan was stripped of a silver medal after gender tests determined that she "did not possess the sexual characteristics of a woman".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santhi_Soundarajan

This is also an interesting site, a "biointeractive case study" of a female athlete called Jane Doe, in which you're taken through a mock case study and diagnosis. Very interesting.

http://www.hhmi.org/biointeractive/gendertest/gendertest.html

*Long article is long, apologies, but I find this subject and the various issues around it quite fascinating!

 

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