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World War II ending year?

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Curious Danny
747925.  Thu Sep 30, 2010 4:07 am Reply with quote

On a rather lighter note, we can also point out that WW1 is almost over as well

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/38/20100929/twl-first-world-war-officially-ends-on-s-6ae0455.html

 
exnihilo
747938.  Thu Sep 30, 2010 5:08 am Reply with quote

Ha, you just reminded me of something on WikiPedia (which a quick check confirms is still there); namely that Versailles was a "factor leading to other conflicts, notably ... the Second World War".

 
Sadurian Mike
747962.  Thu Sep 30, 2010 6:25 am Reply with quote

Ummm....yes? Assuming they mean the Versailles Treaty rather than the place itself. Blaming the town for the outbreak of WWII would be a bit harsh.

 
CB27
747998.  Thu Sep 30, 2010 8:15 am Reply with quote

Have you met some of the people there? :)

 
Ian Dunn
807895.  Thu Apr 21, 2011 8:42 am Reply with quote

I think I have come across more proof to support the argument that Russia and Japan are still at war.

In 1951, there was the Treaty of San Francisco which formerly ended war between the allies and Japan. It was signed by 48 out of 51 countries, the ones not signing being the USSR, Poland and Czechoslovakia.

In 1956 there was the Joint Declaration by Japan and the USSR. This ended the state of war, but this was not a peace treaty. However, the two countries;

Quote:
"agreed to continue negotiations on the conclusion of a peace treaty after the reestablishment of normal diplomatic relations, and the USSR also agreed to hand over the islands of Habomai and Shikotan to Japan after the signing of a peace treaty."


However, both Habomai and Shikotan are still controlled by Russia. In 1973 there was the Japanese-Soviet Joint Communiqué, which aimed to solve:

Quote:
"the settlement of unresolved problems left over since World War II and the conclusion of a peace treaty will contribute to the establishment of truly good-neighborly and friendly relations between the two countries."


So as of 1973, the peace treaty had not been finished. Then there was the Japanese-Soviet Joint Communiqué of 1991 which discussed:

Quote:
"a whole range of issues pertaining to the preparation and the signing of a peace treaty between Japan and the USSR. ... The Communiqué also stressed the importance of accelerating the work on the conclusion of a peace treaty."


So by 1991 there was still no peace treaty. With regards to the differences between the USSR and Russia:

Quote:
After the creation of the Commonwealth of Independent States in December 1991 and Japan's recognition of the Russian Federation as the state with the continuity from the USSR, the negotiations on a peace treaty which were conducted between Japan and the USSR, have been continuing between Japan and the Russian Federation.


So Japan recognised Russia as continuing from the USSR, so it would appear that the war did not end the the USSR broke up. In 1993 the Tokyo Declaration on Japan-Russia Relations states:

Quote:
Both sides agree that negotiations towards an early conclusion of a peace treaty through the solution of this issue on the basis of historical and legal facts and based on the documents produced with the two countries' agreement as well as on the principles of law and justice should continue, and that the relations between the two countries should thus be fully normalized. In this regard, the Government of Japan and the Government of the Russian Federation confirm that the Russian Federation is the State retaining continuing identity with the Soviet Union and that all treaties and other international agreements between Japan and the Soviet Union continue to be applied between Japan and the Russian Federation.


So in 1993 the treaty had still not been signed, and we can see that Japan sees Russia as being the new modern version of the USSR.

In 2001 President Putin and Prime Minister Mori issued a statement, "on the Continuation of Future Negotiations on the Issue of a Peace Treaty."

In 2005 another attempt was made to create a peace treaty, but this failed on the thorny issue of the Kuril Islands.

So, it would appear that no peace treaty has been signed, and because Japan recognises Russia as the successor of the USSR, it must be concluded that on paper the two countries are still at war - thus WWII is still going on.

Sources: Adam Matthew Publications, and Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Japan 1, 2 and 3, RIA Novosti.

 
suze
807918.  Thu Apr 21, 2011 10:35 am Reply with quote

Hold on though. You note near the top that the 1956 Joint Declaration ended the state of war which had existed between Japan and the USSR. It did not establish peace between the two nations - and peace has still not been established between Japan and now Russia.

So it seems to me that the two nations are neither at war or at peace. I'm not quite sure what that status is called or whether any pair of countries is in it.

 
Ian Dunn
807921.  Thu Apr 21, 2011 10:45 am Reply with quote

suze wrote:
So it seems to me that the two nations are neither at war or at peace. I'm not quite sure what that status is called or whether any pair of countries is in it.


Perhaps there isn't one. This might be the only case in history.

 
CB27
807923.  Thu Apr 21, 2011 11:03 am Reply with quote

suze wrote:
So it seems to me that the two nations are neither at war or at peace.

Seems to me Russia has War and Peace all over again...

 
Sparkyweasel
808011.  Thu Apr 21, 2011 5:41 pm Reply with quote

suze wrote:

So it seems to me that the two nations are neither at war or at peace. I'm not quite sure what that status is called or whether any pair of countries is in it.


Armistice?

 
suze
808051.  Thu Apr 21, 2011 6:48 pm Reply with quote

Yes, very possibly.

I suppose the best known armistice is the one signed in a railway carriage on 11 November 1918. That armistice meant that the fighting stopped, but peace was not made until the Paris treaties a year later.

As for other countries which are in a state of armistice at the present time, there seem to be a handful. North Korea and South Korea, for instance - the Panmunjom Agreement of July 1953 meant that they were no longer at war, but they have never made a formal peace.

I think Israel may be in a state of armistice with Lebanon and Syria. The 1949 agreements caused Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, and Syria to cease to be at war with Israel, and Egypt and Jordan have subsequently made formal peace. The other two have not.

And then there's India and Pakistan. Those two countries declare war on each other once a decade or so, and although they are not presently at war they have never made a forma peace.

I did wonder about the UK and Argentina, but in fact war was never formally declared at the time of the Falklands conflict. There may be a stronger argument for the notion that the UK and Iceland were briefly formally at war in 1973 and again in 2008, and there has been no peace treaty.

 
Ian Dunn
808103.  Fri Apr 22, 2011 2:50 am Reply with quote

So does an armistice mean that war is officially over or not? If it does, than that would mean the war between the USSR and Japan ended in 1956, if not it would mean it is still going.

 
suze
808172.  Fri Apr 22, 2011 7:39 am Reply with quote

The main point of an armistice is that armed hostilities cease. That does not necessarily mean that the countries formally cease to be at war.

To find that out, you'd need to make a careful reading of the armistice document. And since the Soviet/Japanese Declaration of 1956 was written in Russian, that would be quite a serious project! (The New York Times published a translation at the time, but was careful to note that this was its own translation and not an official one. It cannot therefore be considered authoritative.)

 
Ian Dunn
808191.  Fri Apr 22, 2011 8:09 am Reply with quote

I think this might be of use. However, it is in Russian, so if there is anyone on the QI website who knows the language, perhaps they can read it for us.

 
suze
808238.  Fri Apr 22, 2011 9:24 am Reply with quote

Ah, here we are. I've found the formal texts of the 1956 Declaration - in Russian here, and in Japanese here.

Japanese is notoriously difficult to translate; the task is often regarded as virtually impossible. Russian is rather easier, so that version of the text is probably our best bet.

 
Ian Dunn
808246.  Fri Apr 22, 2011 9:29 am Reply with quote

The article that I've linked to has an English translation here, but it does not appear to have any more information.

 

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