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Fight - Bruce Lee Vs Mohammed Ali, Qi was wrong

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Lee vs Ali
Lee
52%
 52%  [ 13 ]
Ali
48%
 48%  [ 12 ]
Total Votes : 25

alexkx3
485578.  Wed Jan 21, 2009 9:30 am Reply with quote

Your only points seem to be;

Ali was a great boxer
Ali was bigger and stronger

You obviously don't know that much about fighting. Fighting isn't just punching.

There are 3 ranges of fighting, Stand up, Clinch and Ground.

What i'm saying is, it doesnt matter how good of a boxer Ali was.
If Ali can't keep the fight in a stand up, boxing range, then his boxing is useless, in the Clinch or Ground stages it's worth nothing, and will just get him in a nice arm lock.

All the evidence, from the UFC, Pride, MMA , and other boxer vs martial artist fights, is the boxer can never keep it in that the stand up range, they all ways get taken down and tied up.

Why do you think Ali would be different?
That Ali could somehow avoid getting taken down?
Because he is bigger?
That's bag logic and shows an ignorance and lack of knowledge about fighting.

Even with Ali's weight advantage, he is untrained in the other two ranges, Bruce was profficent in them all, and would dominate Ali in the Clinch and Ground ranges.

 
Sheriff Fatman
485831.  Wed Jan 21, 2009 12:12 pm Reply with quote

alexkx3 wrote:
You obviously don't know that much about fighting. Fighting isn't just punching.


In the 10 years I worked as a bouncer I can safely say I learned more about real fighting than the majority of people who study martial arts. The fights I was involved in you didn't care whether you used punching, kicking, grappling or bouncing someones head of a solid wood door. You did what you had to do to make sure the person causing the problem was out of the building and the other people in the building were not endangered in the process. I have seen black belt martial artists laid low by a single punch, I have seen body builders picked up and thrown off of their feet by people half their size and I have seen 8 stone weaklings stand off 5 security staff with a pool cue.

In real fights the best weapon you have is your voice, not your fists, feet or martial art training. The best way to stop a fight is to persuade the other person that they don't have a chance.

 
Davini994
485915.  Wed Jan 21, 2009 1:45 pm Reply with quote

Quote:
Even with Ali's weight advantage, he is untrained in the other two ranges, Bruce was profficent in them all, and would dominate Ali in the Clinch and Ground ranges.

Feel free to provide evidence of him being proficient, or even better proficient to the degree that he could dominate a champion boxer twice his size. Or any wrestler beating someone twice their size. Or of any proof that Lee was a champion fighter, rather than a trainer and actor.

alex wrote:
Your only points seem to be;

Ali was a great boxer
Ali was bigger and stronger


I haven't said that Ali is a great boxer. So you've only spotted two points and one of them is wrong. No wonder I am having to repeat myself so much.

This isn't a competition between fanboys, mine versus yours. There have been many better boxers than Ali.

What it is is me rejecting your groundless fan-worship. If you want details of why, please feel free to read back. I don't think I'll bother posting again as I'm just having to repeat the same thing over and there's not a lot of point if you just want to ignore it.

 
alexkx3
485964.  Wed Jan 21, 2009 3:26 pm Reply with quote

I'm not fan whorshiping, Bruce lee would get dominated by many modern UFC fighters. I'm arguing against your strong conviction that Ali would win, when you don't seem to know anything about fighting.

[quote="Davini994"]
Quote:
Or any wrestler beating someone twice their size.


Now I know you don't know anything about this subject. Your just one of those SIZE always wins guys.

Please watch these videos of big guys getting dominated by smaller guys.

Former UFC fighter Gil Castillo (170 pounds) vs Professional Football player (250+ name coming later).

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=eRpwbA75Fc4

Royce Gracie (6'1" 180 lbs) defeats Legendary Sumo Grand Champion Akebono (6'8" 486 lbs) in

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=POJ2T023M4I

 
costean
485985.  Wed Jan 21, 2009 3:58 pm Reply with quote

Throughout the animal kingdom, when it comes to determining the outcome of conflict, there is one axiom – size and strength rule.

Many species go to elaborate lengths to demonstrate that one particular combatant has a slight physical edge (size of horns, antlers etc) when otherwise they might appear to be of the same size. A contest where one protagonist is 75% bigger than the other would never occur through choice.

Why should evolution have treated our particular (and, in the grand scheme of things, thoroughly insignificant) species any differently?

Ceteris paribus size will out (we all learnt this in the playground). The point at issue seems to be, is one ‘style’ more effective than another? With two men of equal size it is an interesting question and I suspect that the best exponent of a hybrid style would prevail.

Skill is, I agree, the most important thing; but, when skills are equal, and the size difference is so extreme, then, as according to nature, the big guy wins every time.

 
atheus
489123.  Sun Jan 25, 2009 11:30 pm Reply with quote

I'm not sure who would win but in either case there were a couple of things in that section that struck me as complete rubbish:

First the claim that Ali's punches were faster than Lee's kicks, which could be true, but leaves out the fact that Lee could also punch. In fact in most Chinese martial arts only fast low kicks are used and the hands are the major weapon. High kicks and jumps are just for showing off.

Secondly the idea that boxing gloves make it easier to hurt an opponent because if you hit someone in the head without gloves you will break your own fist. This is of course untrue; you would have to be a very bad fighter indeed to do your fist serious damage by striking someone. You spend thousands of hours bashing bits of wood and doing pushups on your knuckes precisely to prevent this kind of damage. Anyone with a couple of years of martial arts training (and boxing does count as martial arts) can put their fist through a reasonable stack of concrete tiles or wooden planks which I'm sure have much less give than a human jaw. Maybe they meant there was more chance of long term brain damage with boxing gloves due to repeated blows to the head causing swelling and internal bleeding, since it would be harder to knock your opponent out with a single blow wearing a glove?

Regarding the imaginary fight at hand I think I'd have to give it to Lee if it was truly no holds barred - even though he was much smaller, size does not equate to punching power, and even punching power does not equate to lethality. Lee's Chinese training taught him how to quickly kill an opponent with targetted strikes to specific locations, which is something that has faded from western martial arts, if it ever existed.

 
Flash
489256.  Mon Jan 26, 2009 7:25 am Reply with quote

Thanks for your thoughts, atheus.

Of course you're right to say that Lee could also punch - our point is that if it was a punching competition, he'd lose it, simply by virtue of the laws of physics. To compete at all, he'd have to use other techniques. However, that argument has perhaps gone as far as it can on these boards.

As for the assertion about damaging your fists by fighting without gloves ... I suppose all I can do is recommend that you research the literature on this subject a bit more carefully, as there's plenty of it. Old-time bare knuckle fighters used to mostly hit their opponents’ torsos, for precisely this reason (which is why the pictures you see of them always show them with a low guard, protecting the torso rather than the head). The Queensberry Rules became popular because gloves allowed repeated blows to the head and more knock-outs. Gloves do not lessen the kinetic brain-rattling force of a blow to the head – if anything the weight of the gloves increases it. In the 150 years of bare-knuckle fighting before Queensberry there were two fatalities in Britain. Today there are 3 or 4 every year in the US alone (400 worldwide over the past 50 years), and about 15% of professional boxers suffer permanent brain damage.

 
Southpaw
489274.  Mon Jan 26, 2009 7:39 am Reply with quote

Quote:
In real fights the best weapon you have is your voice, not your fists, feet or martial art training. The best way to stop a fight is to persuade the other person that they don't have a chance.


Agreed. I train in a system called F.A.S.T. Combatives (Fear/Adrenaline Stress Training), where the first thing they teach you is body language and 'what to say' to try and avoid a fight in the first place.

The physical side consists of training to hit the face with a flat palm or elbow strike, not punching, and kicks and knees to the groin, as well as what to do in grappling situations and the classic pub move of head-down, charge-in.

There also elements of ground fighting (mainly, how to get off the ground ASAP), and training under as realistic conditions as possible, i.e., in the dark, noisy, with people screaming abuse at you, and guys in thick padding so you can go at it with full force.

It's good fun. :)

 
atheus
493896.  Sun Feb 01, 2009 2:06 pm Reply with quote

Flash wrote:
the assertion about damaging your fists by fighting without gloves ... I suppose all I can do is recommend that you research the literature on this subject a bit more carefully, as there's plenty of it. Old-time bare knuckle fighters used to mostly hit their opponents’ torsos, for precisely this reason (which is why the pictures you see of them always show them with a low guard, protecting the torso rather than the head). The Queensberry Rules became popular because gloves allowed repeated blows to the head and more knock-outs. Gloves do not lessen the kinetic brain-rattling force of a blow to the head – if anything the weight of the gloves increases it. In the 150 years of bare-knuckle fighting before Queensberry there were two fatalities in Britain. Today there are 3 or 4 every year in the US alone (400 worldwide over the past 50 years), and about 15% of professional boxers suffer permanent brain damage.


Well I'll admit I did not actually research the subject at all before posting, as I was relying on my own experience and training. I can personally assure you that a properly formed and conditioned fist will only take minimal damage if delivered correctly. You might cut yourself - a small price to pay I think - but the bones won't break. I'm sure you can find any number of videos on the net of martial artists breaking really hard targets with their fists. And no, of course the gloves do not lessen the kinetic energy in the strike, but they do something else; they cushion the blow and spread the energy over a wider area. Hit a coconut with a large rubber hammer and it will do very little damage. Hit it equally hard with a sharp steel hammer and it will crack open.


I can't explain your statistics, but I would guess that those bareknuckle boxers were more concerned with making the bout last long enough for the crowd to enjoy it, rather than actually doing damage to their opponents... if they had wanted to do real damage I would think those bouts would have ended in a few seconds like most street fights do.

 
Davini994
494096.  Sun Feb 01, 2009 8:25 pm Reply with quote

Well there you have it. Evidence from 150 years of boxing doesn't invalidate atheus's position, since the boxers were just pretending to fight.

 
bobwilson
494107.  Sun Feb 01, 2009 8:39 pm Reply with quote

I have no martial arts training, nor boxing training. I've been in many dodgy situations with bigger, heavier, fitter people than me. I've ALWAYS managed to talk my way out of trouble (even when I was drunk).

Frankly - I don't care whether boxing, wrestling, Kung Fu, Ju Jitsu, or rolling around on the floor pretending to have an epileptic fit is the best form of martial art - all of them pale into insignificance when confronted with the simple expedient of communicating.

 
tp
495371.  Tue Feb 03, 2009 9:11 am Reply with quote

Before reading this thread I was of the opinion that Ali would win - of course he would he's bigger and stronger.
However after reading the arguements for both sides and applying what little I know about combat I have changed my mind.
Boxing is a very rigid fighting form. The main thing in any fight is to strike you opponant effectivly. Ali would be limited to a very small set of effective strikes where as Lee would have a vast repitoire and a lot of experience to fall back on. Yes Ali had street fighting experience but would a few brawls in his youth equip him with the knowlege necescery to cope against an all round fighter like Lee. Assuming Lee adapted his style so he would not be fighting Ali on his terms, which he undoubtidly would do, then Lee would win.

 
QiScorpion
498987.  Sat Feb 07, 2009 10:29 am Reply with quote

Ion Zone wrote:
Quote:
I'm not claiming boxing is rubbish, in terms of striking, boxing is one of the best things you can learn, just not enough on its own.


I agree, my club teaches boxing as part of our training. It also teaches you about taking down boxers, you don't go for the head.


Why not? If you get a good punch in to the temple, the brain gets knocked against the sides of the skull and you go dooooooown. This is what my martial arts instructor has told me, so I can't verify it, but I would imagine, even for boxers, a hit to the head's gonna do some serious damage. Hence why Ali now has Parkinson's disease.

 
crissdee
517987.  Sat Mar 07, 2009 7:13 am Reply with quote

I am left wondering what Lee could do to someone like Tyson who was, let's be honest, a f*****g animal in boxing gloves. No holds barred I think Tyson would probably eat him alive.

 
costean
518179.  Sat Mar 07, 2009 3:01 pm Reply with quote

This subject has had further discussion in the new Qibble Blog.

A poster called Keeper of Secrets makes a salient point.

Quote:
It is an unfortunate side-effect of campy martial arts movies that some people believe short, slight, and twitchy is the True Path. The alluring deception of David vs. Goliath stories aside, most sane people recognize that weight classes in combat sports are not there to protect the bigger fighters from the smaller ones.

 

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