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Fight - Bruce Lee Vs Mohammed Ali, Qi was wrong

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Lee vs Ali
Lee
52%
 52%  [ 13 ]
Ali
48%
 48%  [ 12 ]
Total Votes : 25

alexkx3
483247.  Sun Jan 18, 2009 7:55 pm Reply with quote

After watching the Fight or Flight episode, where Stephen proclaims that in fight between Lee and Ali, Ali would be victorious I feel compelled to rant why he is babeling a load of white noise and complete nonsense.

Stephen's academic mind, while brilliant simply is out of its depth when commenting on combat sports, fighting and all around fisty cuffs.

He states that Ali would win because he was;
Faster,
Could punch quicker in rapid flurrys, whilst Lee's fancy kicks would be to slow and not enough in number.
Ali was bigger.
Lee's movies were speeded up, to make him look faster.

Now in a boxing match, Ali would win everytime! But in a no holds barred fight, Bruce Lee would easily have it.

Rant begin
First of, Lee was deadly fast, thay had to use special high speed film on some scenes in his films. from 24fps to 32fps. And he was told to slow down, so his moves could be recorded.

Lee movie fighting style, was nothing like how he really fought. How do I know? Because I study Jeet Kune Do under one of Lee's own students.
His movie fighting used a lot of high kicks so it would look more dramatic, but in realty, everyone knows that doesn't work.

Stephen said Bruce's fancy kicks were too slow. Lee as well as most matial artists, was aware that big fancy kicks were ineffective. In his actual fighting style, he only used short kicks, aimed below the waist. And as many Boxer vs Kickboxer fights have shown, a boxer can't use his flurry of punches, if he can't get close to the kickboxer, who will keep him at range with his kicks to the groin, knees and legs.

A famous fight between Ali and a Japanese martial artisit, attested to this, where Ali was unable to land one single punch, but the Japanese martial artist caused massive damage to Ali's legs.

And if Ali was able to get close to him, past his low kicks, Bruce was a proficent grappler and wrestler, who trained with many legendary grapplers including Gene La'belle.
Ali would get taken down to the ground easily by Lee, and on the ground, all the boxing skills in the world would be useless, he would be a fish out of water. Evidence = The UFC, where numerous times, world ranked pro boxers would fight against kick boxers, and grapplers and every single time, they lost. Often with out landing a sinlge punch. Often they were much bigger then their opponent.

Boxer would punch, miss. Martial aritst would keep him out of punching range with low kicks, then shoot in, take the boxer down to the ground choke him out, or joint lock.

So the boxers, angry with losing every single time, trained in martial arts and grappling, learnt not to get taken down to the ground, and to grapple when they had to. So the Boxers became Martial artists, skilled in all styles of fighting, which is what the UFC and MMA is today.
Bruce Lee was doing this 30 years before any of them.

 
bobwilson
483252.  Sun Jan 18, 2009 8:04 pm Reply with quote

More important question - who would win in a fight between Neo from the Matrix and that woman in Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon? I think we should be told.

 
Sheriff Fatman
483257.  Sun Jan 18, 2009 8:20 pm Reply with quote

But then in the real no holds barred mixed style fights that use to occur in Hong Kong and Israel, American style wrestlers (including a few WWE wrestlers) often beat eastern martial artists who used fist and foot based techniques. They could take a fair amount of punishment from the punches and kicks, but when they got a hold their opponent struggled to cope.

One point I would disagree with you is you talking about boxing and martial arts, boxing is a martial art. It just concentrates on one part of the body for offence.

 
Sheriff Fatman
483262.  Sun Jan 18, 2009 8:36 pm Reply with quote

alexkx3 wrote:
Now in a boxing match, Ali would win everytime! But in a no holds barred fight, Bruce Lee would easily have it.


I have just thought of another point. A no holds barred fight would not be a fair fight anyway as Ali had never trained in any kicking or grappling techniques. The only fair fight that you could use to compare them would be one in which only hands were allowed to be used as both were highly trained in that technique. As you yourself have said Ali would win every time in that type of fight, so using the only fair comparison Ali is better that Lee.

 
alexkx3
483473.  Mon Jan 19, 2009 6:39 am Reply with quote

How is a boxing match between Ali and Lee a fair match up?
Lee was not a boxer, sure he trained some boxing techniques, but it would'nt be fair to make a boxing match between a Pro boxer and Martial artist. Plus they are different weight classes.

The only fair way is a real everything goes fight. And if you say, thats not fair because Ali didn;ttrain how to use every part of his body, and be adaptable to a REAL fight, then thats the same as saying it's unfair to Ali because Lee is better.

 
Celebaelin
483477.  Mon Jan 19, 2009 6:44 am Reply with quote

By that (extended) logic if Ali brought a gun he'd be the worthy winner!

The only way of making any sense of it is to have two contests with rules applying as they would in a normal bout of the sort and one free for all with rules decided by an impartial group. The rules for the third bout would almost certainly favour Lee. It seems to me that the size advantage might play a part however, otherwise there wouldn't be any need for weight categories in Olympic martial arts.


Last edited by Celebaelin on Mon Jan 19, 2009 6:45 am; edited 1 time in total

 
alexkx3
483478.  Mon Jan 19, 2009 6:44 am Reply with quote

Sheriff Fatman wrote:
But then in the real no holds barred mixed style fights that use to occur in Hong Kong and Israel, American style wrestlers (including a few WWE wrestlers) often beat eastern martial artists who used fist and foot based techniques. They could take a fair amount of punishment from the punches and kicks, but when they got a hold their opponent struggled to cope.


True, which is why Lee famously disagreed with the Hong Kong Kung Fu masters, and traind in all forms of wrestling, Judo, Greco Roman, Free Style in America ect.

Sheriff Fatman wrote:
One point I would disagree with you is you talking about boxing and martial arts, boxing is a martial art. It just concentrates on one part of the body for offence.

Fair point, but boxing is mainly sport based, with rules that limit its effectiveness. No Elbows, rabbit punches ect
Sure martial arts can also be a sport, like in the olympics, but it also can not be sports based.
Lee trained for real life situations, using eye gouging, groin attacks, hair pulling, kness and all that nasty stuff.

 
masterfroggy
483506.  Mon Jan 19, 2009 7:08 am Reply with quote

alexkx3 wrote:

Fair point, but boxing is mainly sport based, with rules that limit its effectiveness. No Elbows, rabbit punches ect
Sure martial arts can also be a sport, like in the olympics, but it also can not be sports based.
Lee trained for real life situations, using eye gouging, groin attacks, hair pulling, kness and all that nasty stuff.

In a free for all no holds barred fight, Ali would win because he was first a a street brawler, and then a boxer. He was a fighter who used his street skills and speed to beat other street fighters. He would win because he would fight no hold barred. Lee would not get a second chance, he's have to knock him down within seconds or be pinned and strangled. Ali would take more punishment than Lee could give, before trapping him and squeezing the life out of him.

 
Davini994
483711.  Mon Jan 19, 2009 10:51 am Reply with quote

Ali would win because he was a trained to fight, not to look cool on film. And he was twice the size of Lee.

Oh, and there is convincing evidence from reliable sources.

You talk about him like a religious figure alexkx3.

 
alexkx3
483801.  Mon Jan 19, 2009 11:33 am Reply with quote

Davini994 wrote:
and there is convincing evidence from reliable sources.

You talk about him like a religious figure alexkx3.


Who are you quoting here? I never said this.

I'm sure against many martial aritsts today in the UFC and MMA in general, Lee would get his arse handed to him on a plate. He's not super human, neither was Ali.

Lee was trained to fight not just to look good on film, and infact before he made it the movies, he trained the American kickboxing Champions, from Joe Lewis and Chuck Norris. All who say they benifted hugely from Lee's tution, and said he was the real deal.

The problem is Ali was trained to Box. Boxing is not fighting. Look at the history of the Mixed Martial Arts, the UFC and other no holds barred competions, the boxers loose everytime, until they learn that boxing on its own isn't enough.

Bruce Thomas a biographer of both Lee and Ali states that his money is on Lee.

 
Davini994
483855.  Mon Jan 19, 2009 11:52 am Reply with quote

No, I'm saying there is convincing evidence from reliable sources, to back up what you are arguing against. Which is why it was on the show.

Among other things, saying that Lee trained for the movies not for fighting; and that his film was speeded up, not slowed down.

Reliable sources is the way it has to be; making claims about something, because you like it, without any backup, doesn't particularly advance the discussion.

As it stands, claims and counter claims about whether Lee could hold off the bigger man with kicks and the like, without source evidence, makes me feel like I'm working behind the counter in blockbusters. As it stands, QI provided information, with evidence, and until you can come up with something solid then that's the way it is.

Lee training Joe Lewis and Chuck Norris sounds interesting, so if you have details and sources of that then please feel free to start there!

 
alexkx3
484044.  Mon Jan 19, 2009 1:50 pm Reply with quote

Okay, see what you mean.

But what sources and evidence did Qi use?
They were just speculating, themselves.

Here's a video of Ali vs a Japanese Wrestler Inoki. The fight is very LAME, becuase at the last minute Ali's corner changed the rules, to prevent Inoki from wrestling. because Ali's corner knew Ali would loose.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=VrXzH4WOUdc

"Bruce also instructed several World Karate Champions including Chuck Norris, Joe Lewis, and Mike Stone. Between all 3 of them, during their training with Bruce they won every Karate Championship in the United States." Little 2001

 
Davini994
484070.  Mon Jan 19, 2009 2:16 pm Reply with quote

alex wrote:
But what sources and evidence did Qi use?
They were just speculating, themselves.

Nope: post 482994

What is "Little 2001"? To claim that a man half the weight of Ali could out wrestle him is silly.

alex wrote:
the boxers loose everytime, until they learn that boxing on its own isn't enough.

This makes the assumption that Ali would stick to the tactics of boxing, and doesn't have any other skills. As someone mentioned before he's done his fair share of street scuffing before his career, do you think he stood around gloves up then?

Frankly I fail to see how a man that size could have hurt a man the size of Ali significantly. Especially a man who was primarily an actor, and never fought competitively.

And there's the rub really; as he hasn't fought competitively, ever, in anything, he can't make a claim to be such a great fighter. Certainly not one able to take out a world champion boxer twice his size.

 
Flash
484133.  Mon Jan 19, 2009 3:24 pm Reply with quote

If it helps: Ali did in fact fight the kickboxer Davis Miller, in Malaysia in 1975. Miller said:
Quote:
I bent to the right, tossed a jab towards his belt line, straightened, snapped a long, tentative front-kick to his head. I figured it was the first kick he'd ever had thrown at him, but he pulled away as easily as if he'd been dodging feet his entire life.

In that (one-round) encounter, Ali allowed Miller to get a few hits in before knocking him senseless with two punches.

s: Los Angeles Times, 17th Jan 2007

My own sensei used to be a professional boxer - he switched to Jiu Jitsu as a sort of retirement activity, because it was so much less demanding.

 
roundhead
484142.  Mon Jan 19, 2009 3:30 pm Reply with quote

Nobody contributing to this topic seems to have factored in the effect of a sand-filled sock to the outcome of this momentous gladiatorial event.

 

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