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Fight - Bruce Lee Vs Mohammed Ali, Qi was wrong

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Lee vs Ali
Lee
52%
 52%  [ 13 ]
Ali
48%
 48%  [ 12 ]
Total Votes : 25

alexkx3
484622.  Tue Jan 20, 2009 7:54 am Reply with quote

Davini994 wrote:


To claim that a man half the weight of Ali could out wrestle him is silly.



Bruce may of been light, but he was increadibly strong,

Former World karate and kickboxing champion, Joe Lewis says
"Bruce was incredibly strong for his size. He could take a 75lb barbell and from a standing position with the barbell held flush against his chest, he could slowly stick his arms out, lock them and hold the barbell there for 20 seconds, that's pretty damn tough for a guy who at the time only weighed 138lbs. I know 200lb weight lifters who can't do that.

I never stood in front of another human who was a quick as him. He not only had the quickness but he had the inner confidence to muster the conviction to do so. I've seen others who had the speed but lack conviction or vice versa. He was like Ali, he had both.I stood before both of these men, so I know."

I'm not sure if you know much about wrestling, an experienced wrestler/grappler against someone with no wrestling experiecne, would dominate everytime, regardless of weight. I've seen first hand 130 pound guys, dominate 200 pound bodybuilders.

If you can't wrestle, you're a fish out of water

 
Celebaelin
484710.  Tue Jan 20, 2009 8:59 am Reply with quote

Quote:
Bruce Lee's Physical feats

Lee's phenomenal fitness meant he was capable of performing many exceptional physical feats. The following list are the physical feats that are documented and supported by reliable sources.

Lee's striking speed from three feet with his hands down by his side reached five hundredths of a second.

Lee could spring a 235 lb (107 kg) opponent 15 feet (4.6 meters) away with a 1 inch punch.

Lee's combat movements were at times too fast to be captured on film at 24fps, so many scenes were shot in 32fps to put Lee in slow motion. Normally martial arts films are sped up.

Lee could perform push ups using only his thumbs

Lee would hold an elevated v-sit position for 30 minutes or longer.

In a speed demonstration, Lee could snatch a dime off a person's open palm before they could close it, and leave a penny behind.

Lee performed one-hand push-ups using only the thumb and index finger

Lee performed 50 reps of one-arm chin-ups.

From a standing position, Lee could hold a 125 lb (57 kg) barbell straight out.

Lee could break wooden boards 6 inches (15 cm) thick.

Lee performed a side kick while training with James Coburn and broke a 150-lb (68 kg) punching bag

Lee could cause a 300-lb (136 kg) bag to fly towards and thump the ceiling with a side kick.

In a move that has been dubbed "Dragon Flag", Lee could perform leg lifts with only his shoulder blades resting on the edge of a bench and suspend his legs and torso perfectly horizontal midair.

Lee could thrust his fingers through unopened steel cans of Coca-Cola, at a time before cans were made of the softer aluminum metal.

Lee could use one finger to leave dramatic indentations on pine wood.

http://www.maniacworld.com/Bruce_Lee.htm

Whilst I find it difficult to believe many of these claims there are a number of video clips on this site which you can view and form your own opinion. The claim that these feats are documented and supported by reliable sources is somewhat at odds with the fact that no sources are given and no film exists of these remarkable deeds. Having said that I haven't as yet watched all the clips on the site, but there is no link entitled Dragon Flag clip for example.

This clip claims to be the most relevant cinematic record of The Way of the Intercepting Fist (which is what Jeet Kune Do translates as). The closing caption is interesting.

 
Davini994
484746.  Tue Jan 20, 2009 9:35 am Reply with quote

alexkx3 wrote:
Davini994 wrote:

To claim that a man half the weight of Ali could out wrestle him is silly.

Bruce may have been light, but he was incredibly strong,

Only for his size though. Far, far, weaker than Ali, and Lee was an actor / martial artist anyway, not a wrestler.

Joe Lewis wrote:
that's pretty damn tough for a guy who at the time only weighed 138lbs. I know 200lb weight lifters who can't do that.

Ali was 240.

alex wrote:
I've seen first hand 130 pound guys, dominate 200 pound bodybuilders.

Bodybuilders? We are talking about sportsmen dear. Bodybuilders don't come into it. And Ali was 240 pounds. Wrestling isn't the primary discipline for either Lee or Ali.

Davini994 wrote:
And there's the rub really; as he hasn't fought competitively, ever, in anything, he can't make a claim to be such a great fighter. Certainly not one able to take out a world champion boxer twice his size.

 
alexkx3
484882.  Tue Jan 20, 2009 12:01 pm Reply with quote

[quote="Davini994"]
alexkx3 wrote:
Davini994 wrote:

To claim that a man half the weight of Ali could out wrestle him is silly.

Bruce may have been light, but he was incredibly strong,

Only for his size though. Far, far, weaker than Ali, and Lee was an actor / martial artist anyway, not a wrestler.

Bruce lee was a proficent wrestler and grappler and trained with many of the best, including Gene La'belle.



alex wrote:
I've seen first hand 130 pound guys, dominate 200 pound bodybuilders.

Yes, but i'm making the point that strength and size are not the only factors deary. bodybuilders tend to be very big and strong.

 
Davini994
484918.  Tue Jan 20, 2009 12:27 pm Reply with quote

Bodybuilders are designed to look muscular rather than be strong.

Any evidence, i.e. a link to a serious site, to back up your claims about Lee's wrestling proficiency? It's mentioned on Gene Lebell's wiki that he trained Lee; but without any details, and wrestling isn't on Lee's wiki at all. So I doubt he did more than a bit here and there.

Size may not be the only factor in wrestling, but overcoming a world champion boxer, who is twice your size, when you are primarily a martial artist, just isn't going to happen. They wouldn't even be let in the ring together, on safety grounds.

Your views also make the assumption that only wrestling matters; Ali's massive strength and phenomenal (to a 135 pound man like Lee) punch would weigh heavily too.

While fighting solely by boxing rules in UFC will result in failure, the punch is still a weapon of value. And as linked to before, Ali kicked the shit out of a kick boxer on one occasion, so maybe boxing isn't quite as rubbish as you claim.

Lee is a man to be admired for all sorts of reasons, but he's still only a man and therefore subject to physics.

Quote:
And there's the rub really; as he hasn't fought competitively, ever, in anything, he can't make a claim to be such a great fighter. Certainly not one able to take out a world champion boxer twice his size.

 
Ion Zone
485010.  Tue Jan 20, 2009 3:16 pm Reply with quote

Quote:
Ali was bigger.


*lots of hysterical laughter*

Soooooooooo? XD


As somone who has practaced some quite hard martal arts, Lee would always win, for one thing, because boxers never have to think about getting kicked, so they don't know how to block it. Also, Lee was a real fighter, boxing is a sport.

 
Moosh
485014.  Tue Jan 20, 2009 3:22 pm Reply with quote

Ion Zone wrote:
Lee would always win, for one thing, because boxers never have to think about getting kicked, so they don't know how to block it.


Flash wrote:
If it helps: Ali did in fact fight the kickboxer Davis Miller, in Malaysia in 1975. Miller said:
Quote:
I bent to the right, tossed a jab towards his belt line, straightened, snapped a long, tentative front-kick to his head. I figured it was the first kick he'd ever had thrown at him, but he pulled away as easily as if he'd been dodging feet his entire life.

In that (one-round) encounter, Ali allowed Miller to get a few hits in before knocking him senseless with two punches.

s: Los Angeles Times, 17th Jan 2007

 
alexkx3
485016.  Tue Jan 20, 2009 3:25 pm Reply with quote

Yes bodybuilders train mainly for asthetics, but they are still extremely strong, albiet not as strong as powerlifters and olympic wieghtlifters.

I'm not claiming boxing is rubbish, in terms of striking, boxing is one of the best things you can learn, just not enough on its own.

Bruce more then just dabbled in it wrestling, Gene Lebell said in an interview once that Bruce loved it and "would eat it up.Ē and fully implemented it into his Jeet Kune Do.

Joe lewis, one of Bruce's students, once sparred with Ali, he weighed 180lbs, and knew less wrestling then Bruce.

"Muhammad Ali was getting ready to fight the wrestler, Inoki, from Japan. He was at the Olympic Auditorium in Los Angeles doing a press conference in the boxing ring. I simply asked him what he would do if a wrestler did a fake punch at his head and shot for his leg to take him to the ground. He told me to step in the ring and demonstrate. The press pushed me between the ropes, and I found myself face to face with Ali. We were both in street clothes, and he had his hands up shuffling side to side using lateral footwork movements against me. I did a shoulder fake, which he reacted to, and shot for his leg. The instance I hooked his leg, I froze. I was too embarrassed to dump him on his butt. He bent forward and wrapped his arms around my waist, and I heard everybody in the place laugh. I picked him up, did a firemanís carry takedown, dumping him on his back, and pinned him on the mat. Everybody grabbed me and pulled me off quickly. I jumped up, telling everybody we were just playing. Ali stood up next to me and put his arm around my shoulder. At the time, I was only about 180 pounds because I was pursuing acting not fighting, and my weight was really down. Aliís first comment to me was, ďYou lifted weights when you were younger, didnít you?Ē Iím sure he could tell I was extremely strong and hard as a brick. Then we did the same movement again, and I pinned him again a second time in a row. Thatís when he showed me how he was going to fight Inoki with his back constantly against the ropes."

 
Ion Zone
485090.  Tue Jan 20, 2009 4:26 pm Reply with quote

Quote:
I'm not claiming boxing is rubbish, in terms of striking, boxing is one of the best things you can learn, just not enough on its own.


I agree, my club teaches boxing as part of our training. It also teaches you about taking down boxers, you don't go for the head.

 
Davini994
485205.  Tue Jan 20, 2009 6:56 pm Reply with quote

Quote:
Yes bodybuilders train mainly for asthetics, but they are still extremely strong, albiet not as strong as powerlifters and olympic wieghtlifters.

Completely for aesthetics if you please. Your claim was that a 130 pound wrestler once dominated a 200 pound body builder; therefore a 130 pound actor could beat a boxer in a no rules fight, by wrestling. Body builders aren't athletes.

alex wrote:
Bruce more then just dabbled in it wrestling, Gene Lebell said in an interview once that Bruce loved it and "would eat it up.

That's a question from a forum member in this interview with Joe Lewis; the answer was:
Joe Lewis wrote:
Bruce Lee and I did not do any ground fighting when I was working with him.


alex wrote:
"Muhammad Ali was getting ready to fight..."

Well maybe. Joe would have cause to show off about things like this, though wouldn't he? And a very simple point: It's about someone else, not Lee; a much bigger man at that, and a proven fighter.

Alex wrote:
I'm not claiming boxing is rubbish, in terms of striking, boxing is one of the best things you can learn, just not enough on its own.

Again, you are suggesting that Ali would fight within the rules of boxing only.

More quotes of interest from Joe Lewis from that interview:

Quote:
Bruce was not a fighter. He was an actor and a teacher. He was a great teacher.


Quote:
Tom Bleeker wrote a book on Bruce Lee and said in it that Bruce Lee used steroids and I also read that he used drugs.


Quote:
Please, drop all the stuff you've heard. Martial arts is full of nonsense. Only believe what you have seen or can prove. Show me more than three real punches in a second and I will kiss your butt. ON film, Ali's jab took 7 frames to complete, and Sugar Ray's took 9 frames.


And from here:

Quote:
Were his skills as good as they've been written - NO.

I was supposed to go out and brag about BL being my instructor to add stature to his name,but he never asked my permission to use my name,since I was a world champion before I met him,to enhance his credentials as an instructor.


We're just going round in circles on this. At the end of the day, he's only human. And he'd have to be more than that to beat Ali in a fight at half the weight.

 
roundhead
485213.  Tue Jan 20, 2009 7:10 pm Reply with quote

As a neutral observer I would like to point out the following:

1) Bruce Lee is long dead.

2) Ali is a shambling hulk with his brain severely damaged.

Perhaps it's time to declare an honourable draw ?

 
Davini994
485217.  Tue Jan 20, 2009 7:24 pm Reply with quote

I guess you are right. What's the point arguing?

And Sonny Liston was more a fighter than either of them anyway. ;)

 
Neotenic
485222.  Tue Jan 20, 2009 7:50 pm Reply with quote

OK then, who would win - Mr Stay-Puft or Frosty the Snowman?

 
Sheriff Fatman
485227.  Tue Jan 20, 2009 8:08 pm Reply with quote

alexkx3 wrote:
Yes, but i'm making the point that strength and size are not the only factors deary. bodybuilders tend to be very big and strong.


They also tend to be bloody awful fighters as they have the wrong muscles and the right ones they do have are too big for fast and effective offence and defence.

 
Sheriff Fatman
485228.  Tue Jan 20, 2009 8:10 pm Reply with quote

Neotenic wrote:
OK then, who would win - Mr Stay-Puft or Frosty the Snowman?


Mr Stay-Puft, especially if it was the one from Ghostbusters.

 

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