View previous topic | View next topic

Holocaust denial(?)

Page 3 of 13
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4 ... 11, 12, 13  Next

bobwilson
440519.  Sat Nov 15, 2008 7:31 pm Reply with quote

Quote:
I have found several sources (here, for instance)


First thing that bothered me is that I went to the home page for the site. The very first statement is
Quote:
Engage challenges contemporary antisemitism. Contemporary antisemitism nearly always appears using the language of anti-Zionism. 'Anti-racist' anti-Zionism is often reckless about creating an ideological foundation for, and licensing, more openly antisemitic discourses and movements.


That, in itself, is not sufficient to challenge the information given but it does mean I wanted to check what they were saying fairly carefully.

Quote:
On December 5 2006, the Iranian government announced details of a conference that questions whether the Holocaust occurred in the first place.


Well, sort of true but somewhat slanted in the way it's worded. I found this site which is called Iran News 21 and is a list of links related to Iranian issues. This gives a link (under the heading Iran defends Holocaust talks) to this BBC report. To quote from the BBC report "Manouchehr Mottaki told participants the event did not seek to confirm or deny the Holocaust, but rather to allow people to "express their views freely".

Now, there are people who "deny the Holocaust" (which, as noted above, can mean anything from questioning the existence of gas chambers to querying the figures) and in some countries they are subject to criminal prosecution. So whilst it's true that the Iranian Government did hold a conference which questioned whether the Holocaust took place, this isn't evidence (or even an indication) that the Iranian Government supported that view.

Yet, immediately following the above line is the statement
Quote:
Who would have thought that someone as important as the president of a country would pretend that the Holocaust was a myth?


In the first paragraph, the author of the article moves from noting that a conference has been called to allow people who hold unorthodox views, views for which they can be prosecuted in some countries, to claiming that that the person permitting the conference is denying that the Holocaust took place.

The site then moves on to a play by Jim Allen and some quotes. Specifically,
Quote:
According to (the play Perdition's) author, Jim Allen, “The simple terrible truth is that the Jews of Hungary were murdered not just by the force of German arms, but by the calculated treachery of their own Jewish leaders.” Allen stated that the Zionists worked “hand in glove” with the Nazis and that it was “the Zionist knife in the Nazi fist” that had murdered the Jews.


But, according to this website on Jim Allen

Quote:
(Ken) Loach summed up the story behind the play: it was how "some Zionists" in Hungary in 1944 had done a deal with the Nazi's:

"In which a certain number of Jews would be allowed to escape to Palestine in return for silence about the destination of those bound for the concentration camps".


It is an undeniable fact that deals were struck between the Nazi regime and Jewish leaders whereby freedom for some would be obtained in return for not making too much noise about other matters. This was particularly true in the occupied territories where Nazi rule was less formal. It's highly unlikely that anyone ever sat down and agreed to the release of (say) 1000 Jews in exchange for not mentioning the gassing of (say) 30,000; but it is highly likely that the release of the same 1000 was bought with the agreement that there would be no pesky snooping around.

 
bobwilson
440521.  Sat Nov 15, 2008 7:44 pm Reply with quote

Quote:
I have found several sources (here, for instance) which state that the Saudi representative to the UN Security Council once claimed in Security Council that "the diary of Anne Frank is a fake and the gas chambers were an invention of the 'Zionist mass media'". And I don't think we can dispute that a Saudi representative to the UN speaks for his King.


Sorry suze, but whilst it's possible that the Saudi representative to the UN Security Council once claimed in the Security Council that "the diary of Anne Frank is a fake and the gas chambers were an invention of the 'Zionist mass media'" I'm going to need something more reliable than that website as a source.

Quote:
Some leading figures in the Islamic world do indeed seek to deny the Holocaust - the government of Saudi Arabia does,


I do believe I can hear the stirrings of a klaxon

 
suze
440568.  Sat Nov 15, 2008 9:05 pm Reply with quote

The hour being late, the system having been pleasantly infused with liquor, and the husband having better ideas, I'll not investigate the matter any further tonight.

But if you don't accept these various sources as indicating that various people said the things attributed to them, why do the sources say that they did? For sure, a writer with an axe to grind might distort the truth a little, but for multiple writers to completely fabricate multiple statements and attribute them to multiple speakers seems unlikely.

 
bobwilson
440569.  Sat Nov 15, 2008 9:32 pm Reply with quote

Doh suze. What various sources? So far you've presented sites which are unequivocal in stating that they're pro-zionist. I even went to the trouble of noting that in the first two paragraphs of one of the (two) sites you quoted there was serious misinformation.

As far as I can see the various sources quote a man who is named as al-Rashidi who is credited with being the Head of the Department of Islamic Studies at King Saud University stating that (to paraphrase) "all Jews must be killed".

I can find no record of Dr al-Rashidi outside rants about him. Wikepedia has no record of a Department of Islamic Studies at King Saud University. King Saud University itself is a bit reticent on the matter.

I think I'm justified in being a little bit sceptical.

There's no mention of any such statements at the UN by credible sources by any Saudi representative.

Quote:
But if you don't accept these various sources as indicating that various people said the things attributed to them, why do the sources say that they did?


Well, maybe because they had an axe to grind?

Quote:
For sure, a writer with an axe to grind might distort the truth a little, but for multiple writers to completely fabricate multiple statements and attribute them to multiple speakers seems unlikely.


Except - that all of the sources are quoting each other. What is this about "multiple speakers" and "multiple statements". The charge you made was that the Saudi Government is complicit in actively involved in denying the reality of the Holocaust. That's a very serious charge.

So far you've produced the mysterious Dr al-Rashidi who apparently heads a non-existent department at the King Saud University but is otherwise unavailable. Plus a whole load of quotes (only available in arabic and not reported in even the most virulently pro-Israeli English language press).

I'm just pointing out that maybe, just maybe, this is a hoax?

 
Arcane
440578.  Sat Nov 15, 2008 11:51 pm Reply with quote

Jenny wrote:
It's quite possibly the same nutters that maintain Barack Obama is a Muslim because his middle name is Hussein, he went (briefly) to a Muslim school in Indonesia when he was about eight, and his name sounds like Osama. I wish I were making this up but I'm not.


Oh dear. Sadly Jenny, I've heard the same thing all the way over here in Australia.

 
Arcane
440584.  Sun Nov 16, 2008 12:42 am Reply with quote

I found this table on the estimated number of the Jewish population killed by country.

http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/holocaust/h-statistics.htm

and also some figures from this table (which do include other areas of war).

http://www.holocaust-history.org/~rjg/deaths.shtml

also this article:

http://www.ukemonde.com/holocaust/victims.html

I have found examples stating that as many non-Jewish people as Jewish people died as a result of the Holocaust, either in camps or elsewhere. Statistics may be found under "Non-Jewish Holocaust statistics" or "non combative statistics" (to differentiate between those who died as a result of combat vs concentration camps/other places etc).

 
exnihilo
440855.  Sun Nov 16, 2008 4:59 pm Reply with quote

I don't think anyone denies that people other than Jews were sent to the camps, certainly no serious group that I'm aware of makes any such claim. What has happened, however, is that certain troublesome groups have made public statements to the effect that Jews disregard the other deaths because they remember their own losses on Yom Ha'Shoah. It was that sort of thinking that prompted Mr Blair to establish a new Holocaust Memorial Day, on a different date, in order to not appear to be remembering just one thing. It strikes me as a tad odd, it's like saying to people at their grandmother's funeral that, yes, it's sad but they ought to remember everyone else's dead grandmothers too, otherwise they're denying them their pain.

 
barbados
440900.  Mon Nov 17, 2008 1:34 am Reply with quote

This topic got me to thinking, why is the denial of the Jewish Holocaust illegal? When you compare what Hitler did, to say Lenin he is just an amateur. There have been many events over time that don't seem to carry the same kudos as the Holocaust, surely a genocide is a genocide, and they should all be treated with equal disdain.

 
Arcane
440902.  Mon Nov 17, 2008 1:44 am Reply with quote

And then there's Pol Pot, Idi Amin...

A quote:

"Historian Richard Pipes has estimated that the Russian Civil War claimed two million combat deaths, two million deaths from epidemics, and five million deaths from famine. Another two million or more, mostly drawn from the bettereducated classes, fled in the face of the violence. Their departure drained the country of its already small pool of experienced leaders, managers, and entrepreneurs. The final death toll of the Russian Civil War exceeded the eight million deaths of World War I."

(e.notes.com)

 
Davini994
440905.  Mon Nov 17, 2008 2:14 am Reply with quote

I think the difference is that it was a very good attempt at systematic genocide, i.e. destruction of a set of people within society.

I can't think of another example of one so rigorously planned and executed off the top of my head. Rwanda probably needs mentioning.

 
Arcane
440906.  Mon Nov 17, 2008 2:30 am Reply with quote

Here is a Wiki link on the Rwandan Genocide.

Perhaps the Holocaust gains more notice because it wasn't someone instantly blowing up several million people, it was sustained and drawn out wholesale suffering of a particular group of people, documented by media that occurred in a world growing smaller by the reporting technology of the day. People actually saw films and images, whereas before, perhaps it didn't seem "real".

 
samivel
440921.  Mon Nov 17, 2008 4:28 am Reply with quote

barbados wrote:
This topic got me to thinking, why is the denial of the Jewish Holocaust illegal? When you compare what Hitler did, to say Lenin he is just an amateur.


What did Lenin do? Surely Stalin would be the culprit who exceeded Hitler in terms of deaths?

 
Arcane
440922.  Mon Nov 17, 2008 4:36 am Reply with quote

samivel wrote:

What did Lenin do? Surely Stalin would be the culprit who exceeded Hitler in terms of deaths?

Stalin and genocide linky

and another link

 
PDR
440961.  Mon Nov 17, 2008 5:15 am Reply with quote

Halocaust denial is illegal in Germany because there was an uprising of neo-nazism who attempted to gain respectability by claiming that the stories were just proaganda, and that in reality Hitler merely administered a playful, good-natured face-slap to two jewish peiople in his entire time in office. It's a sensitive subject in Germany.

PDR

 
Arcane
440971.  Mon Nov 17, 2008 5:26 am Reply with quote

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_denial

and

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/oct/17/germany-australia

 

Page 3 of 13
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4 ... 11, 12, 13  Next

All times are GMT - 5 Hours


Display posts from previous:   

Search Search Forums

Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group