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Holocaust denial(?)

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Davini994
443553.  Sat Nov 22, 2008 10:04 am Reply with quote

Bob Wilson (not Primrose) wrote:
ignoring the stated views of a political party in favour of your perception of the views of a political party means you are ignoring the evidence.

Maybe I've considered their stated views, and the other evidence, and decided I don't believe them. Which is a valid thing to do if the evidence points that way; otherwise someone saying "I'm not racist but..." would constitute proof that they are indeed not.

I'm surprised to have to explain to you, Bob Wilson, that I don't believe a politician!

My comment about Neo's views of the BNPs policies is based on upthread, where he says that we should attack them on their economic policies etc since they are so silly.

(Sorry Barb, I did try and keep it short;))

 
Jenny
443564.  Sat Nov 22, 2008 10:21 am Reply with quote

Can anybody elucidate policies espoused by the BNP that are not connected to repatriation or any other policy that could be deemed to be a front for a racist ideology, that are not espoused by any other mainstream political party who do not have any kind of racist ideology?

 
djgordy
443565.  Sat Nov 22, 2008 10:22 am Reply with quote

Quite. If I received an email from someone purporting to a Nigerian business man who offered to place $50,000,000 in my bank account, I don't need immediate evidence of fraudulent intent to make the inference that they are not telling the truth. Experience tells me that it is a scam. Similarly, if the BNP tells me that they are not a racist party, I use my nous, read between the lines and conclude that they are.

As to the BNP's economic policies; even if we believe what they say about voluntary repatriation (which I don't) the outcome would be disastrous for the country. They don't actually say how much they would offer people to leave but, for anyone with a decent job and a long time until retirement, it is going to have to be a lot. Suppose all the immigrants leave. Suddenly a lot of property will come on the market causing property prices to collapse. There will also be a very large deficit in the public finance because a large percentage of tax payers will have left with a large grant in their pockets. Furthermore, industries which employ a large number of immigrants, such as the health services, will collapse under the strain.

 
Davini994
443571.  Sat Nov 22, 2008 10:29 am Reply with quote

Jenny wrote:
Can anybody elucidate policies espoused by the BNP that are not connected to repatriation or any other policy that could be deemed to be a front for a racist ideology, that are not espoused by any other mainstream political party who do not have any kind of racist ideology?

Ah, I think I may have explained myself badly there then Jenny. I don't mean that they have a subtly racist policy on cycle lanes etc, I mean I believe that they are only pretending to give a monkeys about anything other than race and creed. Which they would put forward so that members can deny that they are racist with slightly more plausible deniability! IMO.

So the cycle lane policies would be normal, but lip service only if you like.

 
Jenny
443572.  Sat Nov 22, 2008 10:31 am Reply with quote

IIRC, one of the reasons why immigration increased greatly in the 1950s was that attractive terms were offered to people to come and do jobs that bodies like the NHS were having difficulty filling.

A book entitled British Immigration Policy since 1939 says that the 1949 report from the Royal Commission on Population predicted that the economy would need an additional 140,000 workers over and above natural population growth a year, which could be secured by immigration.

They did, sadly, rather undermine any positive notes of welcome to new immigrants with the sentence that such a policy 'could only be welcomed without reserve if the migrants were of good human stock and were not prevented by their race or religion from intermarrying with the host population and becoming merged in it.' Indeed - one can only imagine what would happen if that were the case. Some might have envisaged the River Tiber foaming with much blood.

 
Pyriform
444294.  Sun Nov 23, 2008 7:06 pm Reply with quote

I haven't had time to catch up on the whole of this thread, but a friend asked me to post. On The News Quiz they joked that some parts of the list made it sound as though the BNP had family memberships. My friend can confirm that this is the case as his family was one that had such membership and he himself was therefore a member from the age of five until he was independent enough to insist on being removed. Obviously he is not happy about the list of members being published, as he still has siblings who are young and impressionable enough to be on it.

 
bobwilson
444301.  Sun Nov 23, 2008 7:29 pm Reply with quote

This is all becoming very difficult (like any pov that steps outside the established norms) (see Rob Newman's excellent explanation of why he didn't want to appear on Question Time).

Incidentally Pyriform, good point and worth noting but leaving that issue aside as I think that's an area of common ground for all posters:

The trouble I'm having is that "racist" is both emotive and ill-defined.

Davini - I agree that just because someone says they're not "racist" (whatever that means) doesn't mean it's true; but the real question is whether the policies of the BNP are any more "racist" than those of other parties.

I'm going to start a different thread called "Reporting the BNP" to discuss a specific article from this week's Sunday Telegraph which is a typical (imo) article when reporting the BNP.

 
Davini994
444314.  Sun Nov 23, 2008 8:06 pm Reply with quote

I think I'll quietly ignore that thread if it's ok Bob, as I've been posting far too much on the subject of late and I'm even boring myself now.

Should I fail to follow through with this pledge, feel free to point this out;)

 
bobwilson
444319.  Sun Nov 23, 2008 8:24 pm Reply with quote

I'll be rather disappointed if you do ignore it Davini as I think it's likely to get to the heart of the problem that's plagued this conversation.

Fundamentally, my point is that the BNP has a raft of policies which emphasise the issue of placing "British" people's interests first. The only significant difference between the BNP and the mainstream parties is the definition of "British". There are also some less significant differences about the best way to ensure that "British" people's interests are best served.

But, and crucially, the way that BNP policies are reported is fundamentally different to the way that other parties' policies are reported.

To step out of my particular closet for a moment: I'm far more concerned about the way that the current Labour government has criminalised asylum seekers than I am about any latent racism in a minor political party. I'm much more concerned about the way that ID cards are being siphoned in through the back door (by insisting that certain groups who are "not us" must have them inevitably leading to a clamour by banks and other agencies for a universal adoption) than I am about some trivial event to raise funds for a party that doesn't currently have a single MP.

 
Arcane
444377.  Mon Nov 24, 2008 1:36 am Reply with quote

Jenny wrote:
IIRC, one of the reasons why immigration increased greatly in the 1950s was that attractive terms were offered to people to come and do jobs that bodies like the NHS were having difficulty filling.

A book entitled British Immigration Policy since 1939 says that the 1949 report from the Royal Commission on Population predicted that the economy would need an additional 140,000 workers over and above natural population growth a year, which could be secured by immigration.

They did, sadly, rather undermine any positive notes of welcome to new immigrants with the sentence that such a policy 'could only be welcomed without reserve if the migrants were of good human stock and were not prevented by their race or religion from intermarrying with the host population and becoming merged in it.' Indeed - one can only imagine what would happen if that were the case. Some might have envisaged the River Tiber foaming with much blood.


This sounds very much like the "White Australia Policy".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Australia_policy

 
Davini994
444842.  Mon Nov 24, 2008 1:23 pm Reply with quote

bobwilson wrote:
To step out of my particular closet for a moment

If you were in a closet on this matter, it was a glass one.

 
CB27
444858.  Mon Nov 24, 2008 1:47 pm Reply with quote

Ooooh, get you ducky! :)

 
Davini994
444961.  Mon Nov 24, 2008 5:43 pm Reply with quote

Dammit, I really must make better use of winkys. I always feel like Suze is going to tell me off when I do though.

;)

 
bobwilson
445733.  Tue Nov 25, 2008 9:17 pm Reply with quote

now i'm confused. is Dave's winky meant to be at the end of post 444842 (above)? is CB's "Ooooh, get you ducky! :)" an instance of non-PC behaviour?

I think we should be told.

 
CB27
445941.  Wed Nov 26, 2008 8:41 am Reply with quote

It was an instance of non ducky behaviour.

 

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