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"Bali Bombers" last hours.

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433101.  Sun Nov 02, 2008 5:56 am Reply with quote

The "Bali Bombers", Mukhlas, his brother Amrozi bin Nurhasyim and Imam Samudra, responsible for carrying out the bombings in 2002 where 202 people died, are expected to be executed via firing squad by Tuesday according to the deputy of Bali's regional parliament Igk Adhiputra. According to other prisoners they stated that they are not afraid of dying and that it is in Allah's hands. They have also repeatedly stated that they have no remorse for the crimes they committed and welcomed death to become Islamic martyrs. However, they have also sought every possible legal appeal. They have also never sought presidential clemency.

source: Sunday Mail (Brisbane)

Just Say No To Vorderman
433102.  Sun Nov 02, 2008 6:06 am Reply with quote

shame they couldn't have become martyrs without killing others :-(

and an even bigger shame they'll not live long enough to realize there is no god and those virgins they were promised don't exist :-(

433104.  Sun Nov 02, 2008 6:11 am Reply with quote

I wonder why they couldn't have chosen a life of service and good acts towards others to achieve martrydom or at least the chance of paradise....

433123.  Sun Nov 02, 2008 7:06 am Reply with quote

I don't know why Muslims are doing this. AFAIK Islam is a peaceful religion - blowing people up is so peaceful isn't it? - so really the Muslim leaders should come down on it rather than stir it up. If they think their religion preaches hate, that smacks of a mis-understanding to me. But I can't talk, I don't know enough about Islam.
Still, it's despicable what religious people will do to achieve a goal just as easily sought by more peaceful methods.

433136.  Sun Nov 02, 2008 7:28 am Reply with quote

If it is martyrdom that these guys want, then it would be easy to deny them that by the simple expedient of not executing them.

433140.  Sun Nov 02, 2008 7:40 am Reply with quote

I strongly oppose the death sentence in all cases (but I don't propose to debate that here), in this case it seems particularly unproductive.
I read your original post some time ago reddy and it just left me feeling hollow - the whole thing is just so sad and hopeless. What a world we live in.

433142.  Sun Nov 02, 2008 7:44 am Reply with quote

Hmmmm. I know what you're saying suze, and there has been much debate in Australia about this very issue. People I have personally discussed this matter with are very torn in feeling that keeping them alive, fed, watered and housed where they still get the chance to see their loved ones (fair enough they're in jail) would be an affront to families who lost loved ones and survivors, and possibly making them martyrs in sympathetic eyes and bringing about retaliatory attacks and further ill feeling.

I never expected these men to show gross contrition, however, the glee at times that they have shown and the complete disregard for the suffering they caused does make me wonder if any suitable punishment could have be metered out. I fear they are such fanatics that they are quite happy to die, and even if they'd been kept in jail they would be a constant reminder to those who share their cause.

I find a huge dichotomy between their desire for righteousness and to gain glory and their version of heaven/paradise, and the fact they chose to kill 200 people and cause suffering to many more times that to achieve that goal.

433148.  Sun Nov 02, 2008 7:57 am Reply with quote

Timon, I'm entirely with you on the death penalty.

So, it would seem, is reddy's home of Queensland - it was the first state of Australia to abolish capital punishment, and there hasn't been an execution there since 1913. Australia as a whole abolished capital punishment in 1973, and it's now a thing which has been consigned to the history books throughout the civilized world.

I don't know if Kevin Rudd has spoken on the matter, but if he does he'll presumably express opposition (in the same way as did Tony Blair when Saddam Hussain was executed, although Mr Blair said it all too quietly if you ask me).

One way to look at the matter is to consider what these criminals would like least. And if it were me, I'd like a lifetime in an Indonesian jail very much less than I'd like execution. Now I don't say that this is the way we ought to think about crime and punishment, but I'd hope it would be enough for those in Australia who want some kind of "revenge".

433155.  Sun Nov 02, 2008 8:12 am Reply with quote

Here is an article stating Mr Rudd's and the Government line on the Bali Bombers:

Kevin Rudd's opinion on Bali Bomber's execution

As the people who carried out these attacks were Indonesians, the attacks were carried out on Indonesian soil, Indonesian nationals were also amongst those killed, and the Indonesian legal system has decided on this punishment, the Australian Government has expressed that while it is against this penalty, they will not intervene. However, the article also states that government will intervene in the cases of Australians who have been given the death penalty overseas.

433178.  Sun Nov 02, 2008 9:17 am Reply with quote

Thanks reddy - he might almost have taken notes when Tony Blair spoke on Saddam's execution, since his line is exceptionally similar.

I suppose political considerations at home require that he says something like that, and diplomatic considerations preclude him from saying much more, so not especially surprising.

433179.  Sun Nov 02, 2008 9:18 am Reply with quote

suze wrote:
Now I don't say that this is the way we ought to think about crime and punishment, but I'd hope it would be enough for those in Australia who want some kind of "revenge".

Crime and punishment is an issue I have thought long and hard about, and I have some strong views that I like to discuss in the abstract - I refrain from doing so here because of the awful human tragedy that is involved.
As you may have noticed elsewhere, I do not shrink from being provocative in my opinions so long as the issue is theoretical or of no real import. To create offence in this case would be crass in the extreme. Anyway, how is one to make sense of anything when faced with men like these?

Ion Zone
433370.  Sun Nov 02, 2008 4:30 pm Reply with quote

Islam is a peaceful religion

It is a peaceful religion, but there are few boundaries to man's capacity to corrupt. I'm sure that God will find a way of stressing that murderers don't deserve the company of virgins, regardless of what Vorderman thinks. :] Though that, I suppose depends on the brainwashing argument....

Incidentally, the Koran makes no mention at all of martyrs enjoying the company of virgins, if I remember the line in question is a little more tasteful. What it does say (Again, if I remember) is that "Righteous Christians and Jews have nothing to fear from Islam". Which means, in more modern terms, "No worries mate". The Muslims I've met seem to epitomise this, you won't find drunken yobbery in a Muslim country.

433561.  Mon Nov 03, 2008 3:14 am Reply with quote

Ion Zone wrote: won't find drunken yobbery in a Muslim country.

You might among the coalition forces.

433586.  Mon Nov 03, 2008 5:34 am Reply with quote

Ion Zone wrote:
..martyrs enjoying the company of virgins...

Wasn't this recently reinterpreted as 72 raisins rather than 72 virgins, or was this a story that went the same way as Cruithne?

Ion Zone
433667.  Mon Nov 03, 2008 8:00 am Reply with quote

I can't remember, but it wasn't 72 of whatever it was.

You might among the coalition forces.

And the tourists. Goodness knows what they think of us.


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