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Gurkhas

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PDR
419524.  Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:25 am Reply with quote

Nigelblt wrote:

Then you were trained how to kill people. What other reason is there to "fire weapons" in the armed forces. You were also have been taught when it is deemed appropriate or acceptable to kill and it is entirely possible that you would never use that training but it was there all the same.


Sorry, but that's tommyrot - clearly you have no idea what this training included. Rifle shooting in the air cadets (and the other cadet forces as well) comprises learning how to shoot against a stationary target to get the smallest grouping. This skill is of no use whatsoever against people because people move, and the skills required to shoot moving targets are very different - ask and game-shooter.

Also the objective of getting the smallest grouping is pretty useless against peiople as well. Being able to place 5 rounds within a one inch circle is of no use if that circle is three inches to the left of the person you're aiming at - shooting to kill is about observing where the rounds fall and correcting for errors. This skill is NOT taught in the *sport* of competitive shooting.

Finally the air cadet training does NOT include any "rules of engagement" type training. It includes extensive weapons-safety training and the continual, overwhelming and absolute focus on never pointing a weapon at anything but a paper target. Ever. [at least this was the case when I was a cadet in the 1970s, and I doubt it has changed in this respect]. The ONLT people who get training in "when it is deemed appropriate or acceptable to kill" are servicemen/women and armed police. Even these only get it once they have passed basic weapions proficiency standards.

Quote:

All I suggest is that you can do all the character building, glider flying, survival training stuff that the CCF, ATC etc. do admirably well, but without the militaristic element or any need to fire weapons.


Nobody has to fire weapons in any of the cadet forces. It is an optional activity for those who are interested. As for the other assertion - well yes, you can do some of these activities under other banners - the DoE schemes for instance. But it is demonstrably more effective in the pseudo militaristic environment (especially for the lazy wimps we're breeding these days) because in any other environment it is not acceptable to deliver the "enthusiastic encouragement" to stretch one-self and people give up too easily. I have been a lard-arse all my life, but in the air cadets I climbed snowdon, ran 10 miles across country carrying camping equipment, swam 5 miles across the open sea and survived for 5 days on dartmoor with almost no rations. It taught me what I could do if I really wanted to and the effect it had was immeasurable. I would not have achieved these things in any other environment.

So I put it to you that your assertions have no basis in reality.

PDR

 
PDR
419527.  Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:32 am Reply with quote

Nigelblt wrote:
Indeed, experiences they would never have had to suffer if we stopped considering killing people as an acceptable career choice.


As long as there are bad people who are prepared to kill people then it will be necessary to have good people who are prepared to kill people to stop them.

I want MY children protected, not sacrificed on the altar of misplaced pacifism.

PDR

 
Arcane
419633.  Wed Oct 08, 2008 4:49 pm Reply with quote

Back to the topic methinks:

How does one go about collecting knives such as the kukri? Is there a fake market like there is for just about everything, or are replicas just as acceptable?

 
gruff5
420251.  Fri Oct 10, 2008 6:30 am Reply with quote

PDR wrote:
As long as there are bad people who are prepared to kill people then it will be necessary to have good people who are prepared to kill people to stop them.

I want MY children protected, not sacrificed on the altar of misplaced pacifism.

That first para could be a paraphrase of GW Bush's foreign policy - do we really think that has brought a more peaceful world?

The war in Afghanistan was legalised by the UN, just as the war in Iraq was legalised by UK parliament. The death penalties in the USA & Iran & Saudi are all legal. Legal should never mean morally unquestionable.

The quakers who went to America few hundred years back agonised about whether to arm their ships across the atlantic with cannons (as all ships were so 'protected'). In principle, they felt they could not do that. That principle meant their ships were the only ones not attacked, as they were known to be peaceful.

Similarly, once settled in the New World, they dealt fairly with the natives, carried or used no weapons and consequently were never attacked and had good relations with them. This was in contrast to the constant fear & bloodshed experienced by the other gun-toting colonists.

Pacifism is about self-protection - in a communal sense of the word "self".

 
Flash
420324.  Fri Oct 10, 2008 8:57 am Reply with quote

PDR - I haven't been following this debate, but I have to say that your experience of the (at my school compulsory) CCF in the '70s differs from mine. Things like "section battle drills" (the techniques used by rifle sections to overrun entrenched opponents, etc) were central to what we did, and of course the purpose of target shooting is to make you a competent shot, and get you used to using the weapon - so we started out at circular targets on the .22 range but soon moved on to targets shaped like people which were made to pop up unexpectedly as we walked down a track (some of which were civilians, and you were supposed not to shoot them).

 
Arcane
420672.  Fri Oct 10, 2008 11:02 pm Reply with quote

reddygirl wrote:
Back to the topic methinks:

How does one go about collecting knives such as the kukri? Is there a fake market like there is for just about everything, or are replicas just as acceptable?


This discussion about the Ghurkas and kukris has been so interesting, so if anyone could help out with this information I'd be really grateful.

 
simonp
420689.  Sat Oct 11, 2008 2:43 am Reply with quote

Froj wrote:
gruff5 wrote:
I don't know much about Gurkhas currently signed up with the UK army and getting a salary for fighting in Iraq, say.

Do they fall into the category of foreign mercenaries?


Since I don't think this was ever answered, Protocol 1 of the Geneva Conventions states that the Gurkhas are not mercenaries.


Why not? and why does it matter if they are mercenaries or not? I understood that the French Foreign Legion were mercenaries. Does the Geneva convention allow them to be treated differently if taken prisoner for example?

This seems like something Mike would know :-)

 
Arcane
422408.  Tue Oct 14, 2008 10:43 am Reply with quote

On Sunday night here, American Antiques Roadshow featured an 18th Century Kukri that someone had brought it.

It was beautiful, what craftsmanship!

$3,000 US was the value.

 
Southpaw
422912.  Wed Oct 15, 2008 9:10 am Reply with quote

My gurkha story is as follows. My grandfather served in the RAF in India during WW2. He was visiting a friend in the hospital one day when he noticed a horrible stench; not unheard of in military hospitals in hot climates. However, every time he went back the smell was worse, until one day it had gone.

His friend explained that the nurses had checked everyone's wounds and found no infections, so they had turned the ward over looking for the source of the smell. Under the bed of a gurkha at the end of the ward, they found the head of said gurkha's last victim, in a bag. Nice.

 
AlmondFacialBar
422929.  Wed Oct 15, 2008 9:24 am Reply with quote

in a bizarre way that reminds me of the time algernon decided to store a headless dead rabitt under the bed in the spare room...

*EEK*

:-)

AlmondFacialBar

 
gruff5
423060.  Wed Oct 15, 2008 11:22 am Reply with quote

Southpaw wrote:
Under the bed of a gurkha at the end of the ward, they found the head of said gurkha's last victim, in a bag. Nice.

Yes, but what was the craftsmanship of his kukri like? That's what matters ;-)

 
Sadurian Mike
549911.  Thu May 07, 2009 6:38 pm Reply with quote

Bumped, mainly because of the discussion in WFHiT' "Politics" thread about allowing former Ghurkas to settle in Britain.

Hopefully this time it won't be killed by arguments better kept in the WFHiT section.

 
bobwilson
549934.  Thu May 07, 2009 7:30 pm Reply with quote

Do Gurkhas wear Burkhas?

Do Gurhkas wear Burkhas asked the man on the bus
I know that their habits are different to us
No a habit is definitely worn by a nun
Said the woman beside him who was feeding her son
But None when it's clothed is simply a number
Declared Bertrand Russell aroused from his slumber
"A number! A number?" the chorus replied
"Is it true then we are all to be anaesthetised?"
And thus on the bus an arrest was effected
And the source of this rumour was quashed and rejected

And later that day the newspapers read
No-one was hurt and nobody dead
The perps have been safely locked up in the jail
Full details available in today's Daily Mail

 
gruff5
582889.  Sun Jul 12, 2009 6:34 am Reply with quote

Now that Joanna Lumley won the Gurhkas the right to stay in UK, their regiment is apparently being disbanded coz it's too expensive to comply with that. A kind of result, then.

 
Sadurian Mike
582890.  Sun Jul 12, 2009 6:40 am Reply with quote

I am speechless. I think that is one of the most shameful, deceitful and illogical decisions this government has made for a while.

 

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