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Racists comments about South Africans

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proudsaman
410687.  Sun Sep 21, 2008 3:27 am Reply with quote

If the QI panel has to make fun of South Africans and our culture! They need to check that what they are saying is correct!?! 'Bokdroll spoeg'!? Meaning buck shit spitting! I was born and bred in SA and never heard of this!? Where did he get this from? Also one of the panelists made very discriminatory remarks! Which was not funny. It seems as if its the English thing to insult other cultures that you know nothing about!?..Which is very racist! And this country claims to be so PC..don't think so!

 
Rudolph Hucker
410719.  Sun Sep 21, 2008 5:51 am Reply with quote

South Africans were put on this earth as a constant reminder to all the other people of what happens when all of a nation's subjects suffer a sense of humour by-pass operation at birth.

 
proudsaman
410722.  Sun Sep 21, 2008 5:55 am Reply with quote

Sir! We do have a sense of humor! But not to our expense! South Africans are not only Black,they are White as well. I dont think a Black South African would have appreciated those comments either!!

 
CB27
410744.  Sun Sep 21, 2008 6:35 am Reply with quote

Take a chill pill and look around before making accusations.

This cached page is an early example of this story and it's been repeated in many places elsewhere, this BBC article shows it's also known in Mozambique.

As for other comments on the show, if you're referring to what was said about barmen, I think you'll find that it's a joke at the fact that there was an influx of Saffies and Aussies working in London bars (and a few other areas) in the last 10 years and it's been an in joke for Londoners. There's nothing racist about it, it's a caricature of a situation. As for the the joke about chucking out time and townships, this is an "Ali G" type joke about the image people have of white South Africans.

 
proudsaman
410800.  Sun Sep 21, 2008 8:49 am Reply with quote

The Bok Drol Spoeg issue here is not reaaly the problem here!
Even though the direct translation of this from the Afrikaans(I am Afrikaans speaking) is Bok = Buck/antelope(not necessarily a kudu) drol=shit & spoeg=spit.

However I cannot think how it is ever Ok to ridicule/insult people because of where they come from, who they are, what they look like!
It is exactly this type of "humour", when looked at properly, that tries to say that one type of person is better/more clever or cultured than another, that has allowed things to go horribly wrong! A few examples of this are the holocaust, apartheid, the treatment of aboriginal australians and native americans! And that's just touching the surface here!

The Empire is gone!

Oh' and bye the way, I have a wicked sence of humour!!!!!!!!!!!!

Proud African

 
Rudolph Hucker
410806.  Sun Sep 21, 2008 9:07 am Reply with quote

Could you help me in my ignorance and provide examples of the humour that led to holocaust, caused the introduction of apartheid and generated the appalling treatment of the aboriginal Australians and native Americans?

Thank you in anticipation.

 
bobwilson
410808.  Sun Sep 21, 2008 9:16 am Reply with quote

Ah now Rudolph - much as I agree that our proud African friend is being a little bit oversenstive there is an element of truth in the assertion that bigoted humour can lead, or at least further, undesirable behaviour. I fear you may have just led this thread into a whole new direction.

If you have a common currency of jokes along the lines of "what do you call a black man in a suit? - the defendant"; or "What's the difference between a Jew and a canoe? A canoe tips" this can lead to a common perception of difference based on stereotypes, and that can lead to a mindset that ultimately allows you to see bad things done to one group of people as less evil than the same things done to another group of people.

Nonetheless, the joke referred to in the original post was directed at a specific type of South African emigre - ie recently arrived (post end-of-apartheid) and therefore often one who left because of the changed status of the country.

 
Rudolph Hucker
410816.  Sun Sep 21, 2008 10:33 am Reply with quote

Dear oh dear bobwilson old darling!

What are you saying?

Quote:
Bigoted humour can lead to or at least further


These are hardly steps along the same path.

The assertion I was querying was proudsaman's that humour of this sort led to the holocaust which is clearly absolute tosh.

The 'jokes' you quote are perforce based on the rascist stereotypes they contain. A stereotype cannot be a precursor to a behaviour as they are derivative by definition.

You could make a better case for the influence of racist 'jokes' perpetuating the racism they contain by making it appear acceptable to adopt an 'I was only joking' defence.

It does get difficult though as I believe one should be able to poke fun at everything and everyone in the correct circumstances and this leads to the dilemma you describe.

I'll end on a racist Irish joke:

Brendan goes for a job on a building site and asks the foreman for a job.

The foreman agrees to employ him if Brendan can tell him the difference between a girder and a joist.

"Sure and that's an easy one" says Brendan, "Goethe wrote about Faust and that Joyce wrote Ulysses."

 
bobwilson
410830.  Sun Sep 21, 2008 11:13 am Reply with quote

Old darling?

Anyway - (I knew this would happen....)

First, I'm not saying that humour of this type leads to the holocaust any more than I'd say that smoking cannabis leads to heroin addiction.

What I'm saying is that to get to the holocaust you have to start from somewhere. First, you need one person with an irrational hatred of a group of people. This person ultimately has to get a whole load of other people to share this irrational hatred with him. How do you do that?

Well, you begin by caricaturing a characteristic of the group in question using humour - and because it's humourous it travels well. Then you up the ante a bit by taking the humour away and intercutting pictures of Jews with pictures of rats. (OK - I"m skipping a couple of steps here but that's essentially it).

The joke (that is the joke in general not the specific JH one) IS a caricature - and as with all caricatures it contains an element of truth; just sufficient to be recognisable. But once you have that caricature it CAN be reinforced by Adolf sufficiently for the jokiness to be lost and the propaganda to work.

If we just take the original joke that OSAF (our South African Friend) objected to:

This is a caricature of a particular group - recent South African emigres running London pubs. Because of the (essential) use of the comic accent in the telling the association is made in the mind of the audience with all South Africans (or at least, all white South Africans). Already you're creating a separate group of people with an implied shared attitude.

Then along comes our friendly neighbourhood wannabe dictator who starts whining "remember when you used to be able to get a drink after hours in the pubs; these days the bloody landlords sling you out bang on closing time" - and now you're creating a stereotype with negative associations.

What was humourous banter is turning into a political platform.

Having said all that - I still don't agree with OSAF that Jeremy's joke was in any way offensive; nor do I think it could at any time lead to even the seeds of any kind of backlash against white South African emigres - for the simple reason that there isn't an undercurrent of hostility toward white South Africans for it to feed on.

But he is absolutely right in claiming that that type of humour is the kernel of a seed upon which ultimately mass killings can be built. I just think he's drawing his line in the sand a little bit early and that in turns feeds the Littlejohns of the world.

I'd also agree with you that we should - indeed must - poke fun at everyone - and not just in the right circumstances, but at any time. Humour is an essential release mechanism for pent up anger - if you can laugh at your enemies - whether real or imagined - you don't have to kill them.

It's when that "laughing" is usurped to Manning type hatred clothed in the respectability of a joke that the problems start.

As for your "racist" joke - hardly. I'd say it showed erudition on the part of Brendan in knowing about Joyce and Faust meself, together with a healthy snook at an authority figure asking him a bloody silly question. But maybe that's just me.

 
CB27
410834.  Sun Sep 21, 2008 11:19 am Reply with quote

I agree with bobwilson, there are jokes which are simply racist and confirm a stereotype, but there are jokes which mock the stereotype itself. My mention of Ali G is a perfect example IMO, some people misunderstood it to be a sleight on black people, but it's actually a joke about the stereotypes people have of black people.

Personally, from proudsaman's original post and subsequent answers it's looking like nothing but a troll, in which case I'm leaving this as my last reply to this thread.

 
Rudolph Hucker
410837.  Sun Sep 21, 2008 11:24 am Reply with quote

Quote:
As for your "racist" joke - hardly. I'd say it showed erudition on the part of Brendan in knowing about Joyce and Faust meself, together with a healthy snook at an authority figure asking him a bloody silly question. But maybe that's just me.


Thank you so much for dissecting the joke, I think I understand it now.....

 
bobwilson
410838.  Sun Sep 21, 2008 11:24 am Reply with quote

Well - I would have left it too as the original post is too silly for words. I thought Rudolph's first post was all that needed to be said which is why I ignored the thread.

But now it might become quite interesting in discussing when is a joke not a joke? And what's the limits on humour?

 
bobwilson
410840.  Sun Sep 21, 2008 11:26 am Reply with quote

Rudolph Hucker wrote:

Thank you so much for dissecting the joke, I think I understand it now.....


Well since you described it as a "racist" joke I thought the point was that Brendan was supposed to be thick. :0 (Is a joke racist if it shows up the stereotype in a positive light?)

 
Alex Plainlater
410901.  Sun Sep 21, 2008 2:07 pm Reply with quote

bobwilson wrote:
Rudolph Hucker wrote:

Thank you so much for dissecting the joke, I think I understand it now.....


Well since you described it as a "racist" joke I thought the point was that Brendan was supposed to be thick. :0 (Is a joke racist if it shows up the stereotype in a positive light?)


Are ye blind mon!!???

Tha point o tha wee Brendan tale is tha you assumed he was a thick'un - the racist part is in the ear o' the listener - de ye no ken?

 
bobwilson
410907.  Sun Sep 21, 2008 2:17 pm Reply with quote

(spots something passing over his head followed by peals of laughter).

 

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