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Gothic (mistake)

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Celebaelin
676131.  Fri Feb 26, 2010 8:08 am Reply with quote

FatHead wrote:
Yngwie Malmsteen, completely emotionless and a bit shit.

He said, demonstrating all the emotional range and sensitivity of the average traffic bollard.

The excitement, I usually say adrenaline, that metal generates is absolutely the principal attraction of the style*. I personally like to see that combined with musical ability and some sort of recognisable conventional(ish, in some cases) melody but the various divisions of metal are largely artificial and/or meaningless and so, as I've said before on the thread in the H Series forum, it's better to evaluate songs rather than artists.

btw Try Malmsteen's first album - Rising Force (Black Star, Far Beyond the Sun, etc. etc.), a couple of the tracks even have lyrics! Far and away his best album IMO.

* the real problem lies in what people of limited imagination choose to do when pumped up on the music (and/or the lyrics); it's not, let me be clear about this, a license to be a fucking dickhead.

 
Neotenic
676158.  Fri Feb 26, 2010 9:15 am Reply with quote

I think here we see the problem with putting people into broad groups based largely on their music tastes or how they choose to dress.

I think that I, Fathead, Moosh and Celeb would all predominantly define ourselves as metallers, but we all have rather different ideas on which bits of metal are any good.

Thinking further on this theme, I realise that my own definition of what a goth would usually listen to is probably very dated - Sisters of Mercy, Fields of the Nephilim, Bauhaus, The Cure. All very late 80's/early 90's. What would a third millenium goth be listening to?

 
suze
676274.  Fri Feb 26, 2010 12:37 pm Reply with quote

Probably Sisters of Mercy, Fields of the Nephilim, Bauhaus, The Cure, etc - all the more recent Goth bands are crap.

I have one student who would identify herself as a Goth, and her musical taste is 70s glam rock. She's fortunate enough (from her point of view) that it's not a type of music that her parents like (the way she tells it, they rarely go beyond Phil Collins and CÚline Dion). But she finds it slightly worrying that I know all about Alice Cooper, Suzi Quatro, and all the other black clad musicians whose pictures adorn her scholastic stationery!

 
bobwilson
676461.  Sat Feb 27, 2010 12:14 am Reply with quote

bobwilson wrote:
You are Jimmy Carr and I claim my 5 quid


You are all Jimmy Carr and you now owe me considerably more than 5 quid

 
Droid
677724.  Wed Mar 03, 2010 4:34 am Reply with quote

So when did this Goth thing actually atart?

Neotenic wrote:
Thinking further on this theme, I realise that my own definition of what a goth would usually listen to is probably very dated - Sisters of Mercy, Fields of the Nephilim, Bauhaus, The Cure. All very late 80's/early 90's. What would a third millenium goth be listening to?


I missed (have absolutely no idea about) Fields of Nephilim, but I was listening to the Cure from when seventeen seconds came out, saw Siters of Mercy in the Leeds Uni around 1983/4 and was listening to Bauhaus in 82/3. I can't tie it down any more precisely, I'm using memory of which room I was in when I listened to it. That's the good thing about moving into different student houses, it gives you an extra handle to trace memories.

Is it just how some people initially react to teenage angst that makes them listen to music that helps suggest that they are different to others?
A feeling of alienation from parents or other percieved groups in the peer age range?

I was one of the few who liked Tubeway army. Can the alienation there, which is more of a replicant/ Philip K Dick concept be seen as a precurosr to the later vampire/undead sense of "otherness"? (I did like the metal that most of my peers listened to as well, but I still had an interest in other 'pop music' genres. Squeeze still being one of my favourites from that time.)

 
Neotenic
677832.  Wed Mar 03, 2010 8:06 am Reply with quote

Quote:
Is it just how some people initially react to teenage angst that makes them listen to music that helps suggest that they are different to others?
A feeling of alienation from parents or other percieved groups in the peer age range?


There's certainly something of a rite of passage thing going on with the alienation - it's been a pretty consistent theme with teenagers for a good fifty years or so.

I guess it could be said that teenage angst is, in historical terms, a relatively new creation because the whole social concept of being a teenager is also a pretty new development - you don't have to go back that far to find a world where it was simply impossible for seventeen year olds to loaf around shopping centres with their mates, hating the world, because they'd already have been thrust into the adult, working world. Oh, and the shopping centres didn't exist.

Something I certainly find interesting is that although new subcultures spring up all the time, old ones never seem to die away completely - and goth seems to me to be a prime case in point. Droid as an early eighties goth, seems to have been listening to the same bands that my early nineties goth friends were listening to - and, from what suze says, they still figure fairly highly in that scene today. I'd imagine that if you went every year to the Whitby festival to take pictures, the only thing that would really help you gauge how old the pictures were would be the mobile phones.

I also think that (with obvious bias) this is an area where metal has a bit of an edge on other guitar-based genres, in that it does appear to continually evolve - certainly more than goth, indie, industrial or punk does, anyway.

One other thing I've noticed (before I stop rambling) is that the people who tend to express the most vehement distaste for whatever 14-18 year olds are up to these days are those in the 19-24 year age group. My guess is that this is because it's the first moment when they realise that they didn't invent, or have a monopoly on, sex drugs and rock n' roll.

 
Tas
677845.  Wed Mar 03, 2010 8:19 am Reply with quote

Certain individual songs/bands play an aggressive form of metal. Most metal that I listen to/have come across is more about making socio-political statements, as well as the generally most popular theme of most modern music (relationships).

I am about as non-agressive as you will find, I think, and would definitely class myself as a metal-head (or metaller, as we used to call ourselves back in the day).

Anyone who tars an entire genre/culture/sub-genre/sub-culture with so wide a brush is just plain wrong, and too damned lazy to actually do a little research into the area being discussed.

:-)

 
Droid
677905.  Wed Mar 03, 2010 10:57 am Reply with quote

Neotenic wrote:

I also think that (with obvious bias) this is an area where metal has a bit of an edge on other guitar-based genres, in that it does appear to continually evolve - certainly more than goth, indie, industrial or punk does, anyway.

One other thing I've noticed (before I stop rambling) is that the people who tend to express the most vehement distaste for whatever 14-18 year olds are up to these days are those in the 19-24 year age group. My guess is that this is because it's the first moment when they realise that they didn't invent, or have a monopoly on, sex drugs and rock n' roll.


Well, since I've had a DAB radio I've been listening to Planet Rock which plays more 'trad' metal and sometimes some of the precursors. I'm not sure wether it's evolving or not. To some extent there are new branches from the main trunk, but only time will tell if they become the main trunk or just tail off with a few leaves.

I suspect your hypothesis has much merit. I remember thinking that the Metallica that my younger brother listened to was a load of new noise, but by that time I was in your second age group :-) I wonder if that's also the time you start to realise your parents are having sex as well. That's more than just a loss of the monopoly (that you didn't have), that's one of those run from the room screaming in horror moments.

 
RLDavies
677918.  Wed Mar 03, 2010 11:42 am Reply with quote

Neotenic wrote:
One other thing I've noticed (before I stop rambling) is that the people who tend to express the most vehement distaste for whatever 14-18 year olds are up to these days are those in the 19-24 year age group. My guess is that this is because it's the first moment when they realise that they didn't invent, or have a monopoly on, sex drugs and rock n' roll.

There's none so vehement against their old religion as those who've been converted to a new one. Ex-smokers are more militant than never-smokers. Children who have just given up playing with dolls are the loudest mockers of those who still do. The 19-24 age group is only just realising what asses they made of themselves in their teen years. As a result, they mock and spurn everything their ex-age-group likes.

There's also a big change that occurs around age 25-30, essentially the final maturation of the mind and personality. It causes a shift in priorities, among other things. So even if you aren't embarrassed about your teen activities, you quickly come to realise that they're not so important and not so much a part of yourself as you thought they were.

 
Neotenic
677964.  Wed Mar 03, 2010 1:50 pm Reply with quote

Quote:
Well, since I've had a DAB radio I've been listening to Planet Rock which plays more 'trad' metal and sometimes some of the precursors. I'm not sure wether it's evolving or not.


Indeed - but from what I've heard of it, listening to Planet Rock you'd be forgiven for thinking that it was still 1986.

As I say, new branches definitely emerge, then become part of the landscape - funk metal appeared in the late eighties, followed by rap-metal, which morphed into nu-metal and a sort of neo-traditional metal has come to the fore more recently, probably as a reaction against that. Metal and hardcore also merged into metalcore along the way, and mathcore is taking the fretboard histrionics of the likes of Malmsteen and adding a buffalo-that's-been-kicked-in-the-nads-size helping of aggression to it.

Actually, something which has always bugged me about documetaries about metal is they always seem to concentrate on the Black Sabbath/Judas Priest/Iron Maiden style traditional stuff, and the alternative metal bands that are really my favourites (like Faith No More and Helmet) never really get a look-in. One of these days, I may just have to get around to writing one myself.

I think that part of the reason genres, or sub-genres, never really die is that a large proportion of people tend to stop actively seeking out new music once they leave their teens, for good or ill. Discovering new bands has always been a thrill for me and will probably always remain so, but I also understand that most people don't get quite as wrapped up in their music as I do.

I still get a real kick out of introducing people to music I think they might like - my little brother rarely leaves from coming to stay without a good few gigabytes of new tunes on a memory stick.

 
Droid
678130.  Thu Mar 04, 2010 3:38 am Reply with quote

Neotenic wrote:
Indeed - but from what I've heard of it, listening to Planet Rock you'd be forgiven for thinking that it was still 1986.


XD This morning Alice Cooper played Paperback writer by the Beatles, so I was thinking it might be 1968. There was also a Faith no more song, although I can't say what it was, it was one I recognised, so it's probably very well known (in the right circles).
Although I listened to proto-Goth music, I was a long haired, denim clad type, who also listened to other things that were frowned upon by my peers. Ah, the illicict thrill of playing non-approved music. Put away the Deep Purple, Rainbow, Rush, Gillan, Whitesnake, Saxon and Status Quo, and break out the Gary Numan, Japan and The Buggles. Oh yeah, mustn't forget M -
New York, London, Paris, Munich
Everybody talk about ... Pop music
Pop, pop, pop, pop music

Now that's released that aural worm into my brain, I wonder if it will infect anybody else.

 
RLDavies
678461.  Thu Mar 04, 2010 3:23 pm Reply with quote

Droid wrote:
Oh yeah, mustn't forget M -
New York, London, Paris, Munich
Everybody talk about ... Pop music
Pop, pop, pop, pop music

Now that's released that aural worm into my brain, I wonder if it will infect anybody else.

Yes. (I also have the 45 of that very song, though I own nothing to play it on now.)

It's M People, surely?

By the way, an earworm of "Pop Music" doesn't go at all well with watching Chigley on TV:
Time flies by when I'm the driver of a train
And I ride on the footplate there and back again,
Pop, pop, pop music...

 
Bondee
678467.  Thu Mar 04, 2010 3:30 pm Reply with quote

RLDavies wrote:
It's M People, surely?


Nope, just M, but they were sometimes know as Robin Scott's M. I missed it first time around, but I do have the 12" of the 1991 remix.

M People didn't come along until the late 80s/early 90s.

 
Droid
678476.  Thu Mar 04, 2010 3:42 pm Reply with quote

I have the album on good old-fashioned vinyl, but sadly my turntable drive band has snapped, so I am unable to annoy my children with it.

 
Efros
678535.  Thu Mar 04, 2010 7:08 pm Reply with quote

get one of these Droid

http://www.gadgettastic.com/2008/04/01/vw-camper-van-portable-record-player/

 

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