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Shamima Begum case

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tetsabb
1313819.  Sat Feb 16, 2019 2:52 pm Reply with quote

What crime has she admitted?

 
Leith
1313822.  Sat Feb 16, 2019 3:02 pm Reply with quote

I think conviction in absentia is normally on the basis of voluntary absence, no? To refuse to help someone who actively wants to return and face trial, convict them in their absence, and only then help them return to serve their sentence would surely breach all manner of laws and rights relating to fair trials, I'd have thought.

 
barbados
1313824.  Sat Feb 16, 2019 3:07 pm Reply with quote

tetsabb wrote:
What crime has she admitted?

She said when she left what she intended to do, and part of that included support of a proscribed terrorist organisation.

 
barbados
1313826.  Sat Feb 16, 2019 3:13 pm Reply with quote

Leith wrote:
I think conviction in absentia is normally on the basis of voluntary absence, no? To refuse to help someone who actively wants to return and face trial, convict them in their absence, and only then help them return to serve their sentence would surely breach all manner of laws and rights relating to fair trials, I'd have thought.


We know that whatever happens, it involves a big can of worms. There are surely also crimes in Syria that her membership of IS would have led to? perhaps the answer is to allow them to try her first? And I suppose since there has been an admission then there will be no need for sentencing. Either way there should be an arrest warrant waiting for her when she lands.

 
Leith
1313830.  Sat Feb 16, 2019 3:42 pm Reply with quote

I think most people, including her, are expecting an arrest of some sort. However, an apparent confession, where we can't yet rule out some form of duress, does not constitute a guilty plea, especially in the absence of any formal charge.

 
PDR
1313888.  Sun Feb 17, 2019 7:36 am Reply with quote

Leith wrote:
I think most people, including her, are expecting an arrest of some sort. However, an apparent confession, where we can't yet rule out some form of duress, does not constitute a guilty plea, especially in the absence of any formal charge.


To head off the need for more speculation - a learned and informed discussion of the legal issues has just been posted by BarristerBlogger.

PDR

EDIT - this isn't really in response to Leith - I included his post as context to link it back to the last item in this thread of the discussion (the thread within the thread!)

 
barbados
1313922.  Sun Feb 17, 2019 3:00 pm Reply with quote

PDR wrote:
Leith wrote:
I think most people, including her, are expecting an arrest of some sort. However, an apparent confession, where we can't yet rule out some form of duress, does not constitute a guilty plea, especially in the absence of any formal charge.


To head off the need for more speculation - a learned and informed discussion of the legal issues has just been posted by BarristerBlogger.

PDR

EDIT - this isn't really in response to Leith - I included his post as context to link it back to the last item in this thread of the discussion (the thread within the thread!)


Good read Pete

 
Jenny
1313983.  Mon Feb 18, 2019 1:54 pm Reply with quote

I've split these posts out from the How Was Your Day thread in General Banter - apologies if I've messed up by leaving some out but I think this gives the thrust of the conversation so far.

 
Jenny
1314008.  Mon Feb 18, 2019 5:21 pm Reply with quote

Shamima Begum is 'traumatised', says her lawyer as he likens Isil bride to a First World War soldier

 
Alexander Howard
1314017.  Mon Feb 18, 2019 6:31 pm Reply with quote

Much of the coverage has emphasised how Shamima Begum cannot be allowed to come home as she is unrepentant about joining Daesh and about the things that they did. That is a fair commentary. However Lord Winston pointed out in The Times that we cannot tell what she thinks, because where she is living at the moment, she could be killed if she denounces the Islamicists.

 
dr.bob
1314040.  Tue Feb 19, 2019 5:50 am Reply with quote

Leith wrote:
Even if we did consider Shamina Begum (without trial) to be an irredeemable genocidal maniac, as a British citizen, why should it be any other country's responsibility to work out how to deal with her?


This sums up my feelings on the matter most succinctly. Simply imagine if the situation was reversed. Imagine if a foreigner (let's call him Geoff) came to the UK, sympathised with a terrorist organisation, and perpetrated some kind of crime*. Now, take all those people who are saying Ms Begum should be prevented from re-entering our country and ask them "should we be allowed to forcibly repatriate Geoff to whatever country he came from" and I'll bet you pretty good money that the majority would say "yes."

For this reason, it strikes me as massively hypocritical that people should be suggesting that we should be allowed to block Ms Begum's entry to this country and force some other (much poorer) country to be responsible for her. She's a British citizen therefore, like it or not, she's our responsibility.

It would be better if the government would stop grandstanding to Daily Mail readers and come up with a measured and considered plan for how to deal with returning ISIS fighters since Ms Begum isn't the first and, given Donald Trump's recent warning, she certainly won't be the last.



*OK, this is not an exact metaphor for the Shamina Begum case, as it's not yet clear that she did anything illegal in Syria.

 
barbados
1314053.  Tue Feb 19, 2019 7:08 am Reply with quote

If she did do something that is illegal in Syria, shouldn’t she (or he come to mention it) be dealt with by the Syrian authorities before bein repatriated to face the consequences of her misdemeanours in the UK?

 
suze
1314056.  Tue Feb 19, 2019 7:53 am Reply with quote

Arguably so, but there aren't really any "Syrian authorities". Five different organizations control different parts of the country. The only one which is internationally recognized is the Assad government, and since it is propped up by Iran and Russia even that is not an entity with which Western governments are especially comfortable with dealing.

None of the organizations has a police force and a system of criminal justice which are in accordance with Western standards, and the UK has no extradition arrangements with any of them.

The government has made it plain that we're not going to go and extract Ms Begum from the refugee camp where she is believed to be staying. It would be a difficult operation with no guarantee of success and it would also be illegal, so not happening. So nothing will happen unless she chooses to return to the UK. What will happen if she does do that is the subject of this thread.

 
PDR
1314059.  Tue Feb 19, 2019 8:34 am Reply with quote

I've been searching, but can't find it - perhaps the forum's archivist/post-finder-general can find help?. Some time many, many years ago (2008ish?) I got into pne of my typically pointless arguments on here on the subject of foreign offenders being deported at the end of their sentences. I was supporting it but the majority saw it as "racist". My arguments were essentially the same as the ones Bob advances above - if you misbehave in another country your own country has at least some responsibility for your punishment/rehabilitation/etc. I was hoping I could find it, because it wpould be interesting to compare and contrast the views expressed in both discusions.

PDR

 
Strawberry
1314064.  Tue Feb 19, 2019 9:10 am Reply with quote

PDR: Possibly this thread. I'll link to the first post.

Post 327649.

 

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